Freethought & Rationalism Archive

capnkirk · 02-22-2004, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yangja Isuko
A Deity would be any being with powers that transcend human abilities by a significant degree. Demons, Angels, Satan would all fall into this catagory, and thus christianity is, polytheistic. The fact that they only worship one deity does not change this, as they believe in the existence of more than one.

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Karalora · 02-23-2004, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Calzaer
Hey! A thought occurred to me!

If Christianity really is monotheistic, that means Jesus impregnated Mary with himself! And since Jesus was 100% man and 100% God, that means Jesus was born of man, and that Mary had known man, which means Mary wasn't actually a virgin - she committed incest with her as-yet-unborn son!

Wow...sounds pretty Pagan, don't it?

nogods4me · 02-23-2004, 10:49 AM

Well, if Angels lack free will, how did Lucifer manage to try to usurp God's throne?

Magus55 · 02-23-2004, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nogods4me
Well, if Angels lack free will, how did Lucifer manage to try to usurp God's throne?

Who said Angels lack free will?

Calzaer · 02-23-2004, 01:06 PM

Karalora:

Quote:

Wow...sounds pretty Pagan, don't it?

It does indeed!

Kata Sarka · 02-23-2004, 01:53 PM

According to my understanding of ancient polytheism, the ancient gods each had their own business.

One god was in charge of war, another caused earthquakes, yet another was in charge of childbirth etc.

Depending on what you needed, that determined which god you worshiped. Kind of like a business transaction.

When monotheism comes along, all control now falls to one deity. This one god is the only one allowed to be worshiped.

Someone might say to a monotheist, "but you still have all these other beings running around."

"Sure...", they would say "...but no one worships them. There are no temples to the archangel gabriel. No one offers incense to michael."

In my opinion, this is the key point. The abilities of the beings don't make them gods, its their role.

Place the goddess venus next to an angel. For the most part they are similar. Both are supernatural, able to travel great distances in the wink of an eye, etc.

If I want to find my true love, I go to the temple of venus and worship her. I cannot do that to an angel, its fruitless in a monotheistic system.

In monotheism angels (though powerful) are merely higher ranking employees in the only business in town.

I know it seems completely arbitrary. The fact is, it probably is.

Kata Sarka · 02-23-2004, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Calzaer
Magus, why does God need servants?

I've often wondered this myself.

Or as Star Trek's Captain Kirk once said, "Why does God need a starship?"

Doctor X · 02-23-2004, 03:35 PM

capnkirk:

They should have never demoted him. "ADmiRAWL Kirk" sounded so cool when Khan said it.

Anyways, I think you get the point. Early religions had polytheistic conceptions. Elements are retained in the OT/NT. Believe some of the OT rantings, and polytheistic worship was quite the norm.

With NT, it depends on what the "original" followers thought. It seems, if you believe current reconstructions, that Junior was a secular character. At some time--blame Paul who whoever--he became a son of a god.

Sorry, but as you note the "trinity" explanation is late and does not explain that. What is significant is that this was "two gods" was not a strange thing for the followers--certainly not from pagan or pagan-influenced followers.

As for what Satan, demons, and others had become, it seems to me they were progressively subordinated. I do not think Satan was ever a "god"--as in something worshipped--sexually frustrated teenagers aside. He "may" be part of the collection of gods who meet in Job, but he is different in that he has a separate title and hangs about the earth.

Anyways, it all show the development of religions which modern practitioners try to deny.

--J.D.

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02-23-2004, 10:49 AM	#33
nogods4me Contributor Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 17,432	Well, if Angels lack free will, how did Lucifer manage to try to usurp God's throne?

02-23-2004, 01:53 PM	#36
Kata Sarka Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 16	According to my understanding of ancient polytheism, the ancient gods each had their own business. One god was in charge of war, another caused earthquakes, yet another was in charge of childbirth etc. Depending on what you needed, that determined which god you worshiped. Kind of like a business transaction. When monotheism comes along, all control now falls to one deity. This one god is the only one allowed to be worshiped. Someone might say to a monotheist, "but you still have all these other beings running around." "Sure...", they would say "...but no one worships them. There are no temples to the archangel gabriel. No one offers incense to michael." In my opinion, this is the key point. The abilities of the beings don't make them gods, its their role. Place the goddess venus next to an angel. For the most part they are similar. Both are supernatural, able to travel great distances in the wink of an eye, etc. If I want to find my true love, I go to the temple of venus and worship her. I cannot do that to an angel, its fruitless in a monotheistic system. In monotheism angels (though powerful) are merely higher ranking employees in the only business in town. I know it seems completely arbitrary. The fact is, it probably is.

02-23-2004, 03:35 PM	#38
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	capnkirk: They should have never demoted him. "ADmiRAWL Kirk" sounded so cool when Khan said it. Anyways, I think you get the point. Early religions had polytheistic conceptions. Elements are retained in the OT/NT. Believe some of the OT rantings, and polytheistic worship was quite the norm. With NT, it depends on what the "original" followers thought. It seems, if you believe current reconstructions, that Junior was a secular character. At some time--blame Paul who whoever--he became a son of a god. Sorry, but as you note the "trinity" explanation is late and does not explain that. What is significant is that this was "two gods" was not a strange thing for the followers--certainly not from pagan or pagan-influenced followers. As for what Satan, demons, and others had become, it seems to me they were progressively subordinated. I do not think Satan was ever a "god"--as in something worshipped--sexually frustrated teenagers aside. He "may" be part of the collection of gods who meet in Job, but he is different in that he has a separate title and hangs about the earth. Anyways, it all show the development of religions which modern practitioners try to deny. --J.D.

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