Clivedurdle

Paul met Christ in a vision.

He notes 500 people saw the RISEN CHRIST. Let us accept that - how could that be - some form of mass hallucination?

So, is all this stuff about "I come quickly" actually everyone admitting they are having visions and are taking that as signs and portents that the real deal will happen in this generation?

Later on it gets historicised - but maybe not that much - because the alleged heresies are saying he took on the likeness of humanity - maybe HJ and second comings are later ideas than the NT imposed on their thinking by attempts to square this circle?

rhutchin

First, there is the idea that this world will end at some point in time.

2 Peter 3
10 ...the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Then, there is the idea that this event is identified with the coming of Christ.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I think we get a picture of Christ coming to change things dramatically and that is what people were looking for.

Clivedurdle

Look carefully at the Bible quotes you have made above.

Imagine groups of people into messiah expectation - a very common mind game at the time - also having visions of Christ!

They add in the typical wars plagues earthquakes that always happen and have always thought to be omens of the end times.

They write the above stuff.

It is a later assumption they are discussing a second coming!

Maybe that vision of Jesus with Elijah is very significant for their mind set!

Clivedurdle

If Jesus has already been, why the delay? Why have we already not seen this sign?

Why was the mission not "finished" especially as we have comments "the kingdom of heaven is with you". Which is it - here now or in the future?

dongiovanni1976x

Paul and Christ’s Second Coming

And [Jesus] said to them, “Truly I tell you, there are some of you standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” Mark 9:1
(kai lego autos amen lego humin hoti eisi tis histemi hode hostis geuomai ou me geuomai thanatos hoes an eido basileia theos erchomai en dunamis)

Christ’s resurrection is evidence for Paul that the End is very near. It is a sign that the final days are not merely “at hand,” but have already arrived. It is upon us, he informs his Corinthian community, that the end of the ages has come (ta tele ton aionon katenteken; I Cor 10:11); “The form of the cosmos is passing away” (7:31).
Nor shall this final period extend indefinitely: Paul expects to live to see the Last Days. He speaks of his hope for the transformation of his present body before death (2 Cor 5:1-5), and in light of his conviction, he even feels it reasonable to urge his congregants to forswear sexual activity, “[for] the appointed time has grown very short” (I Cor 7:26, 29). So near is the End that both Paul and his communities are troubled by the death of believers before Christ’s Second Coming: they did not expect this and do not know what to make of it (I Thes 4:13). So anomalous is a Christian’s dying before Christ returns that Paul suggests such deaths may be punitive: because the Corinthians have celebrated the Eucharist unworthily, he argues, many “are weak and ill, and some have died” (I Cor 11:30). …With Christ’s coming, the “dead in Christ” will then rise, to be joined by those still alive at the Parousia (among whom Paul expects to be, I Thes 4:15).

Funny thing is, no one in Jesus’ audience is still around, Christ hasn’t come back and Paul was literally DEAD wrong.

(Fredriksen, P. "From Jesus to Christ (or via: amazon.co.uk)" p58-59)

Clivedurdle

Remember Paul is thought to be before Mark, and Mark - at least forty years later (who can remember much of what people said 40 years ago - (OK I remember Billy Graham saying "I want you to get out of your seat"!)

but a detailed quote as from Mark?

The only quotes so far have confirmed my suspicion that Paul was expecting a first coming that would usher in the lamb lying down with the lamb!!

rhutchin

Let's say that you are correct. People are into messiah expectation, so they write the above verses. Don't those verses agree with the "expectations" of the people and describe Christ coming at some future date? The verses describe a coming of Christ (second or whatever). If some future coming of Christ is only later assumed to be the subject of these verses, then what do you see these verses actually describing?

rhutchin

My understanding is that this event was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit described in Acts 2. I am not sure what Fredriksen thought about it?

I agree with that. The only intangible is how long that period of time would last. Neither Paul nor the apostles seem to have known how long the "final days" would last.

I think Fredriksen has taken verses out of context. However, I agree with the basic point that Paul had great hopes that Christ would return in his lifetime and was excited at the prospect of that return. Paul's argument was then, as it has since been, that a person should live as if Christ would return today.

Certainly, Paul is dead. Whether he is wrong remains to be seen.

rhutchin

The reason for the delay as explained by Peter was--

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

I think the term "the kingdom of heaven is with you" was a reference to a person having been saved by God. That would be a present reality that could not be taken away.

Chili

Isn't Christ supposed to come and Jesus just comes around to show them the way? I don't think that they know who is to come to do what and will probably crucify him all over again.