archibald

"And so Jesus is our true Mother in nature by our first creation, and he is our true Mother in grace by his taking our created nature."

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch....nofnorwich.htm

This statement has been attributed to the 14th- century female mystic Julian of Norwich. Julian may or may not have meant literally, that Jesus was female, though she may have tried to blur gender distinctions to fit a proto-feminist theology, but is the actuality so ridiculous? Is it possible that jesus either was female, or, was conceived of as being female?

It's not as if she would have been unprecedented. Think of the prophets Deborah and hildah, and Rachel, 'the mother of all Israel'.

Perhaps, this was the 'Messianic secret', the 'true, 'stumbling block'?

Jesus' arrival certainly appears to represent a shift from the vengeful, angry, stern god of the OT with essentially female values, peace, love and forgiveness.

And apparently, Christianity was especially popular with women. Indeed, it has been asserted that many more females than males were converting to Christianity in its first centuries. ('The early Christian World, vol 1 (or via: amazon.co.uk), ed Philip Esler (2000) p.423).

Woman are sometimes described as being among the 'least' in Jewish society, in terms of status and power and rights, and does not Matthew tell us that the least shall be first in the new order? What was the hidden symbolism which might have lain behind Mark having 3 women be the first to discover the supposed empty tomb?

There are also some fishy-sounding verses. What about Romans 7 v3-4:

3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The 'brethren' are to be married and bear fruit? Note this follows on the heels of a discussion about women.

Everywhere one looks, one may see signs of original material which seems to have slipped through the net.

We have clement of Alexandria, apparently writing of "the Father's loving breasts" and "the milk of the Father" , and in Revelations 1:13 also describes his breasts (mastos).

On a more anecdotal note, a number of stories obviously contain references to washing and bathing and indeed the preparation of food (at least two miracles where large crowds are fed, and a somewhat important supper) as well as elements about diet and fasting, and indeed relationship matters. Also, does Jesus not appear to spend a large amount of time trying to convince men to even listen to her?

The above paragraph may be taken lightheartedly, but at the same time.......there may be part of an overall pattern which offers another way of thinking about possible explanations.

Perhaps the most significant indicator of all for a possible precedent lies in the cult of Ishtar, a female goddess, originally a Babylonian deity (though linked to the Sumerian Inanna), and Ezekiel 8:14, in its reference to 'women weeping for Talmuz' suggests that such a deity may have been popular in early (Old Testament early) Jerusalem. (Tammuz was condemned to hell by Inanna/Ishtar).

The interesting thing about Inanna is that her story contains a remarkable paralell to the Jesus story, in that she first descended hrough a number of realms, finally being killed by the ruler of the lowest realm, and then crucified, whereupon she remained dead for only 3 days and 3 nights.

It may also be worth noting that as late as the Apostolic Constitutions (c. 250AD), the cult of Tammuz and Astarte (a common transliteration of Ishtar) is listed among the heresies of the early Jews.

Bullmoose Too

I am not a sexist but women can not do anything right and are terrible at everything. So the idea of Jesus being a women is absurd.

But seriously. That is some interesting reading.

mountainman

This is begging the question of when and if Jesus arrived, but there is nothing new or novel in the ethics of the new testament which was not already present in the world BCE.


What were Elser's sources for this sweeping statement, do you know?



Was Jesus a woman?


Wasn't Jesus supposed to have been circumcised?
Has anyone DNA tested the genuine series of holy foreskins?

archibald

1The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2 John 1:1

Who is the 'elect Lady' in this passage? Orthodox Catholicism has suggested Mary, the supposed mother of the elusive Jesus. Of course, Mary has come down to us as the mother of the prophet, not the prophet herself, though even she was apparently venerated as early as the 2nd C, and the Sub Tuum Precedium prayer is dated as far back as the mid 3rd C:

'Beneath your compassion, We take refuge, O Mother of God: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble: but rescue us from dangers, only pure, only blessed one.'

One does not have to scratch very deep, or look far throughout the history of christianity, or even at present-day practices and rituals (thousands visit the village of Knock here in Ireland to see her apparitions) to perceive a thread of goddess worship, much of which may now be lost to us, or convoluted/corrupted as a result of overlayering and masculization by the Catholic Church.

And what about the Collyridians?

'Collyridianism was an obscure early Christian heretical movement whose adherents apparently worshipped the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, as a goddess. The main source of information about them comes from their strongest opponent, Epiphanius of Salamis, who wrote about them in his Panarion of about 375 AD. According to Epiphanius,[1] certain women in then-largely-pagan Arabia syncretized indigenous beliefs with the worship of Mary, and offered little cakes or bread-rolls (Greek κολλυρις – a word occurring in the Septuagint) to her. Epiphanius states that Collyridianism originated in Thrace and Scythia, although it may have first travelled to those regions from Syria or Asia Minor. Little else is known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridians

Going out on a speculative limb, is there a possible scenario involving an actual female prophet at the core of the story, and was the supposed virginal birth of a mythical man 'created' to steer the story in a direction less controversial and more acceptable to a deeply patriarchal society?

archibald

Richard Carrier cites the book (edited by Esler) in 'Not the Impossible Faith' (chapter11). The study in question is by Gillian Cloke, 'Women, Worship and mission: The Church in he Household'. Carrier himself feels comfortable stating 'Women were a major (his emphasis) target of the Christian mission' and that Christianity's appeal to women has been cited by several other historians as an important factor in its early success.


Rrrrriiiiiggghhht, and women can't be circumcised?

archibald

'But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory.'

—1 Corinthians 2:7

The Greek word for wisdom, is of course, 'Sophia'.


In some Christian traditions (like the Orthodox tradition), Sophia is the personification of either divine wisdom (or of an archangel) which takes female form. She is mentioned in the first chapter of the Book of Proverbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess#Judaism

mountainman

Can't the DNA test distinguish the difference?


Sloncha!

archibald

As far as am aware, the 'Deus non Androginus' test passed out of use shortly after the Spanish Inquisitions.

But seriously, while I am speculating,....how many of these early Christian guys got married or had girlfriends? Why the apparent disdain for sex? Was Paul a slightly troubled gay man with a strong feminine side, an over-active religious imagination and a penchant for mother worship? :]

Toto

That page number is in to an essay by Gillian Cloke entitled "Women, worship and mission: the church in the household." The sources appear to be the gospel and Acts. The author does not need to accept these as historically accurate to use them as a source for social history.

Very funny.

The Holy Prepuce is venerated as the only part of Jesus' body to be left on earth after his Ascension.

Toto

Vol 1 of The Early Christian World is an astonishing price on Kindle, but appears to be available on Questia here