Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 10-11-2007, 12:21 PM

It's like a brand in modern advertising terms. In a pre-literate society, and in a post-literate society such as ours, people rely on symbols, trademarks, "icons" to identify themselves.

A simple outline of a fish would work as well as anything. A cross is simpler, but it could easily be a random x mark. The two arcs would not occur randomly. It would be a relatively simple, but secure, way to identify yourself to fellow converts.

The ichthys connection would be an added benefit, but probably some words could be associated with any symbol.

Clivedurdle · 10-11-2007, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It's like a brand in modern advertising terms. In a pre-literate society, and in a post-literate society such as ours, people rely on symbols, trademarks, "icons" to identify themselves.

A simple outline of a fish would work as well as anything. A cross is simpler, but it could easily be a random x mark. The two arcs would not occur randomly. It would be a relatively simple, but secure, way to identify yourself to fellow converts.

The ichthys connection would be an added benefit, but probably some words could be associated with any symbol.

It is not grafitti or a brand to put it in your art work. There are meanings here, that interestingly seem to be taboo to acknowledge.

Assuming for example it is a symbol of the vulva, what were the religious reasons for these people to do this? If it is something else like pisces, why do they seem to be worshiping a fish god? It is definitely worth asking what the symbolism is about and stop thinking in apologetic terms of brands and codes.

This looks like a very different religion to what we have now. That is definitely worth exploring.

Toto · 10-11-2007, 12:33 PM

You are getting into early-Christianity-was-really-goddess-worship-until-the-evil-masculinist-Church-fathers-spoiled-it-all school of thought.

It's interesting speculation, but I can't see that it goes beyond popular fiction and speculation.

Clivedurdle · 10-11-2007, 12:39 PM

http://www.davidslife.com/school/aap/eustolius.htm

For example, the author here makes assertions that this is a xian site. Is it?

Quote:

* on the floor, see an inscription in black tesserae, framed by a multicoulored wreath
o says: "Enter for the good luck of the house"
o in itself, these inscriptions are common - last week, saw same thing in the Tony's presentation of the House of Dionysius
* the vestibule is 20 meters long and 5 meters wide
* once opened onto the west end of the north portico of a central square courtyard
* courtyard probably enclosed a garden with a square fountain and a rectangular fishpond

COURTYARD

* the floors of the three long porticoes extending around the east, south and west sides are paved with mosaics
* unfortunately, the mosaic floor of the north portico has entirely disappeared

WEST PORTICO (COURTYARD)

* west portico preserved a badly damaged mosaic floor
* divided into four panels
* decorated with cross-shaped ornaments, rosettes, and other geometrical motifs

SOUTH PORTICO (COURTYARD)

* mosaic floor of south portico is also badly damaged
* shows lots of artistic variety
o swasticas, squares, and circles
o also, both rectilinear and curviliner motifs
o juxtoposition of these themes were very popular in this era

EAST PORTICO (COURTYARD)

* major part of mosaic floor has been preserved in excellent condition
* mosaics decorating the center and southeastern end of the floor, aesthetically beautiful and historically significant
* MOSAIC ON FLOOR
o made using brown and white tesserae
o inscription is written in the form of a three-lined poem resembling the Homeric dactylic hexameter
o in translation it reads: "In place of big stones and solid iron, / gleaming bronze and even adamant, / this house is girt by the much venerated signs of Christ"
o this mosaic clearly emphasizes the predominance of Christianity over paganism
o see representations of fish and certain birds of paradise
+ a grey goose, a pheasant, partridge, guinea hen and falcon
+ these are all striking Christian symbols, which represent deep faith in Christianity
o clearly, the edict of Milan in AD 313 had been completely accepted before the construction of this building complex

Clivedurdle · 10-11-2007, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

You are getting into early-Christianity-was-really-goddess-worship-until-the-evil-masculinist-Church-fathers-spoiled-it-all school of thought.

It's interesting speculation, but I can't see that it goes beyond popular fiction and speculation.

What is speculative to actually ask what the architecture means? The traditional view is also a speculation isn't it? Since when was religious authority and age a good argument?

Is not ichthys popular fiction and speculation?

I would like to see an agnostic look at all the symbols and evidence and what it means. The above quote looks like someone may have decorated their home in the latest multi faith fashion - sensible to insure yourself against all the gods - if that is the case someone should state that!

Later conquests of certain factions are irrelevant, except they may have destroyed evidence!

Clivedurdle · 10-11-2007, 12:56 PM

http://www.pbase.com/philipp_h/image/68489153

Christian?

Toto · 10-11-2007, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

http://www.davidslife.com/school/aap/eustolius.htm

For example, the author here makes assertions that this is a xian site. Is it?

Here's another, more comprehensive site that quotes from a local guide:

House of Eustolios

Quote:

Built on the ruins of an earlier palatial private residence, which was completely destroyed by the earthquakes of the late 4th century A.S., the present form of this impressive House dates from the end of the 4th to the middle of the 7th century A.D.

The 4th century would put this well into the Christian era by anyone's reckoning, I believe, and the inscription itself says that the house is Christian. I'm not sure why this wouldn't be Christian - what else would it be?

I agree that everything is speculation here, and when you look at fourth century art, you are probably seeing a lot of images borrowed from paganism.

Biff the unclean · 10-11-2007, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There are some Hellenistic Jewish temples that incorporate the Pisces symbol - two fish chasing each other's tails.

It depends on where you were. Egypt/Rome it was one fish. Greece it was the 2 fish that Aphrodite and Eros turned themselves into to excape Typhon. It didn't universally become 2 until the 1700's IIRC

Baalazel · 10-11-2007, 07:04 PM

The almond shaped segment formed when two circles intersect is known as a mandorla. The symbol signifies the overlap or reconciliation of opposites such as the reconciliation of a righteous God and sinful man.

Remove the proper segments and you have the fish like symbol people stick to the rears of their cars.

Baal

ph2ter · 10-11-2007, 11:51 PM

It is not so hard to find from where the fish came into play:

But he [Jesus] answered them, "An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgement with this generation and condemn it, because they repented when Jonah preached to them – and now, something greater than Jonah is here!"

Matthew 12:39-41

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10-11-2007, 12:21 PM	#11
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	It's like a brand in modern advertising terms. In a pre-literate society, and in a post-literate society such as ours, people rely on symbols, trademarks, "icons" to identify themselves. A simple outline of a fish would work as well as anything. A cross is simpler, but it could easily be a random x mark. The two arcs would not occur randomly. It would be a relatively simple, but secure, way to identify yourself to fellow converts. The ichthys connection would be an added benefit, but probably some words could be associated with any symbol.

10-11-2007, 12:33 PM	#13
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	You are getting into early-Christianity-was-really-goddess-worship-until-the-evil-masculinist-Church-fathers-spoiled-it-all school of thought. It's interesting speculation, but I can't see that it goes beyond popular fiction and speculation.

10-11-2007, 12:56 PM	#16
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	http://www.pbase.com/philipp_h/image/68489153 Christian?

10-11-2007, 07:04 PM	#19
Baalazel Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: South Alabama Posts: 649	The almond shaped segment formed when two circles intersect is known as a mandorla. The symbol signifies the overlap or reconciliation of opposites such as the reconciliation of a righteous God and sinful man. Remove the proper segments and you have the fish like symbol people stick to the rears of their cars. Baal

10-11-2007, 11:51 PM	#20
ph2ter Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Europe Posts: 219	It is not so hard to find from where the fish came into play: But he [Jesus] answered them, "An evil and adulterous generation asks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgement with this generation and condemn it, because they repented when Jonah preached to them – and now, something greater than Jonah is here!" Matthew 12:39-41

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