Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Derec · 09-01-2007, 06:47 AM

In the plague narrative in Exodus 4 and 7, the P source has Aaron wield his staff, while in E it is Moses. Friedman's "Bible with sources revealed" translates Aaron's staff as turning into a serpent (tanin) in Exodus 7, while Moses' staff turns into a snake (nahash) in Exodus 4. What is the difference between the two Hebrew words, and is it significant?

By the way, NIV translates both as "snake", while KJV translates both as "serpent".

Lugubert · 09-01-2007, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derec

In the plague narrative in Exodus 4 and 7, the P source has Aaron wield his staff, while in E it is Moses. Friedman's "Bible with sources revealed" translates Aaron's staff as turning into a serpent (tanin) in Exodus 7, while Moses' staff turns into a snake (nahash) in Exodus 4. What is the difference between the two Hebrew words, and is it significant?

By the way, NIV translates both as "snake", while KJV translates both as "serpent".

One aspect is that English has too many words. When translating (which is my business) I often use synonyms, just to avoid being bored by repetitions. Swedish uses way fewer Roman synonyms. The most up to date Swedish Bible translation uses a snake equivalent ('orm'; cf. English 'worm'!) in both cases. My Bible Hebrew dictionaries all have 'snake' (rather, German 'Schlange') for Ex. 4 nahash, but for tanniin, there's 'sea-monster' times 3, 'dragon' times 7, and 'serpent' times 4. All of them more or less monsters, which might explain that the IPU is never quoted as an alternative.

That should be no more significant a difference than for the case of a Hindi word that sometimes refers to a tiger, sometimes a lion, sometimes a boar, or any just about any ferocious best of the wild.

Derec · 09-01-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anders

One aspect is that English has too many words. When translating (which is my business) I often use synonyms, just to avoid being bored by repetitions.

I don't think that's it. He has a footnote, naming the Hebrew words, but does not go into detail. If it was merely a synonym to avoid repetition the footnote would be superfluous.

Quote:

but for tanniin, there's 'sea-monster' times 3, 'dragon' times 7, and 'serpent' times 4. All of them more or less monsters, which might explain that the IPU is never quoted as an alternative.

This could be it. Moses' Nahush could be an anatomically correct snake, vs. some kind of mythical monster for Aaron's Tannin staff. Something like a dragon, or even Leviathon, especially if similarity between Levites and Leviathan is anything more than a false cognate.

John Kesler · 09-02-2007, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derec

I don't think that's it. He has a footnote, naming the Hebrew words, but does not go into detail. If it was merely a synonym to avoid repetition the footnote would be superfluous.

Regarding Exodus 7:10, here is Friedman's footnote from page 130 of The Bible With Sources Revealed:

Quote:

The staff becomes a serpent (tannin) here in P. In E it becomes a snake (nahas). Also, it was Moses' staff that was supposed to be used to perform the miracles in E (Exod 4:17), but it is Aaron's staff in P.

Friedman's point is that the fact that two separate Hebrew words are used is one line of evidence that separate sources are involved. It is interesting, however, that in his book Commentary On The Torah, Friedman affixes this footnote to Exodus 7:9, original emphasis:

Quote:

7:9. a serpent. Not a snake. This is different from the snake (Hebrew nahas) that Moses' staff became in Exod 4:3. Moses performed that miracle for the Israelite elders (4:30). Now, in front of Pharaoh, Aaron's staff becomes a tannin. This is the term that is used for the big sea serpents that God makes on the fifth day of creation (Gen 1:21). They are not merely snakes, as people have often pictured them. They are extraordinary creatures from a seemingly unearthly realm.

From the Web site, "Bible Snakes," comes this:

Quote:

The Hebrew word “nachash” or “nahas” is generally accepted as “snake”. As in other languages, the word is sometimes applied differently- as a name, in composites, and, e.g., to a star or constellation. The etymology of this word is complex, fraught with difficulties, but it may be of Akkadian origin. The Arabic “hanash” , {e.g. “hanash aswad”, which has been held to bethe Black Desert Cobra [Walterinnesia aegyptia LATASTE, 1887]}, is applied in some areas to snakes, and is almost certainly derived from Hebrew- “hanash aswad”.
<snip>
Types of snakes are complex. Careful analysis of the word “tan” (pl. “tanim”) and “tanin” (pl. “taninim”) are vital to understand the classification of reptiles in both The Bible and The Koran, for before Pharaoh, Moses’ rod, which turned into a snake at the burning bush, as “Aaron’s Rod”, metamorphoses into this beast. This is retained in some translations of The Bible, and implied in The Koran, but in many modern translations this subtlety is not conveyed. “Tan” is often held to be “jackal”, and “tanin” “crocodile”.

09-01-2007, 06:47 AM	#1
Derec Contributor Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 15,686	Staff of Moses and staff of Aaron In the plague narrative in Exodus 4 and 7, the P source has Aaron wield his staff, while in E it is Moses. Friedman's "Bible with sources revealed" translates Aaron's staff as turning into a serpent (tanin) in Exodus 7, while Moses' staff turns into a snake (nahash) in Exodus 4. What is the difference between the two Hebrew words, and is it significant? By the way, NIV translates both as "snake", while KJV translates both as "serpent".

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