Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Theophage · 12-10-2003, 01:15 PM

Okay, I was in the yahoo religion rooms today, and a chatter mentioned that the Bible predicted the fall of the World Trade Center buildings. They said that it was the Tower of Babel reference which not only meant the mythical tower itself, but also pointed (prophecy always has a double fulfilment

) to the WTC.

Anybody ever heard fo that before? Any comments?

Edited to add:

Wouldn't you know it, the Infidel guy has beaten me to it:

http://www.infidelguy.com/flashtoons/IG_Babel.html

orac · 12-10-2003, 02:46 PM

The bible has predicted absolutely every event that has ever happened in the last 2000 years. I know this because noone ever manages to say something useful such as "a particular and clearly defined bad thing will happen at a precise time and place" but afterwards there's always nuts coming out of the woodwork to insist that everyone should have known that a vague reference to a specific single tower actually applies to all groups of buildings that are more than 1/2 an inch high and that it 'obviously' meant a particular building that was recently damaged in some way. Of course, anything from complete destruction to particularly ugly wallpaper suggested by a colourblind decorator counts as the predicted destruction.

Well, that's not entirely true. over the years many people have pointed out that the world will definately be destroyed at a particular time and this time they didn't make any mistakes. Afterwards they stand around looking really confused then completely forget about it because the leader has a new time and date that's definately correct this time and noone said the last one was certain anyway.

The really sad thing is that if you point out to people that they are only able to "predict" things that have already happened they won't understand the problem.

Mageth · 12-10-2003, 03:03 PM

Hey, there may be something to that double-fulfillment prophecy bit. Perhaps Balaam's talking ass was prophetic of the election of Dubya...

CX · 12-11-2003, 11:58 AM

Two points:

1)All biblical prophecy not surprisingly occurs after the fact. Consequently one might be tempted to say that people read current events into biblical passages. The Hebrews called this midrash.

2)Double fulfillment is a clever dodge to avoid the fact that a prophecy was already fulfilled prior to it being applied to a current situation. This is the case with most of the supposed prophecies of Jesus in the OT. I've never seen biblical support for the idea of double fulfillment and suspect it is a Xian invention (though I suppose it could be of Jewish origin I don't really know)

Vinnie · 12-11-2003, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Hey, there may be something to that double-fulfillment prophecy bit. Perhaps Balaam's talking ass was prophetic of the election of Dubya...

:notworthy: :notworthy::notworthy:

sharon45 · 12-12-2003, 08:45 PM

In Jewish belief, there is no such thing as a "double prophecy", and all the prophecies are already done as predicted except the prophecies concerning the "World to Come" beginning with the first arrival of the real Messiah.

Kattaz · 12-14-2003, 09:19 AM

Bad or good, it's happening!
Apocalips 18:1-24; 17:16.

Theophage · 12-15-2003, 07:52 AM

From http://biblegateway.com :

Quote:

Revelation 18
1After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. 2With a mighty voice he shouted:
"Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil[1] spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
3For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."
4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup.
7Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
'I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.'
8Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.
9"When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
O Babylon, city of power!
In one hour your doom has come!'
11"The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more-- 12cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men.
14"They will say, 'The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.' 15The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16and cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!'
18"Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, 'Was there ever a city like this great city?' 19They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
where all who had ships on the sea
became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!
20Rejoice over her, O heaven!
Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
God has judged her for the way she treated you.' "
21Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:
"With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.
22The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters,
will never be heard in you again.
No workman of any trade
will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
will never be heard in you again.
23The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world's great men.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
24In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earth."

Revelation 17

16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Yep, that's really happening ... Um, wait ... where is that happening again? Even if we assume that New York = Babylon, it still doesn't fit. Thanks for playing, please try again...

Kattaz · 12-15-2003, 02:51 PM

Thanks Theopage for the english version. As is evident, the Revelation doesn�t refer to entire city of New York, but only to the building of WTC. Because the only word used to describe the Babilon in your version is city, but the original word mean mostly �fortress� than city. If we take example of old jewish city, we see the fortress is equal with city, but if we go to roman empire and ancient Hellas, we see cities built around a fortress in which reside important peoples. That is the case of WTC in New York, and that explain why the Babel tower is linked to Babilon.
P.S. Please excuse me my english mistakes who may appers.

Theophage · 12-15-2003, 05:08 PM

Hello Kattaz,

Okay, I guess the big question is, why do you think that the Babylon in the Apocalypse of St. John refers to the WTC?

I want specifics...

12-10-2003, 01:15 PM	#1
Theophage Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Posts: 966	Yet another amazing Bible prophecy: The WTC! Okay, I was in the yahoo religion rooms today, and a chatter mentioned that the Bible predicted the fall of the World Trade Center buildings. They said that it was the Tower of Babel reference which not only meant the mythical tower itself, but also pointed (prophecy always has a double fulfilment ) to the WTC. Anybody ever heard fo that before? Any comments? Edited to add: Wouldn't you know it, the Infidel guy has beaten me to it: http://www.infidelguy.com/flashtoons/IG_Babel.html

12-11-2003, 11:58 AM	#4
CX Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Portlandish Posts: 2,829	Re: Yet another amazing Bible prophecy: The WTC! Two points: 1)All biblical prophecy not surprisingly occurs after the fact. Consequently one might be tempted to say that people read current events into biblical passages. The Hebrews called this midrash. 2)Double fulfillment is a clever dodge to avoid the fact that a prophecy was already fulfilled prior to it being applied to a current situation. This is the case with most of the supposed prophecies of Jesus in the OT. I've never seen biblical support for the idea of double fulfillment and suspect it is a Xian invention (though I suppose it could be of Jewish origin I don't really know)

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12-10-2003, 02:46 PM	#2
orac Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 2,082	The bible has predicted absolutely every event that has ever happened in the last 2000 years. I know this because noone ever manages to say something useful such as "a particular and clearly defined bad thing will happen at a precise time and place" but afterwards there's always nuts coming out of the woodwork to insist that everyone should have known that a vague reference to a specific single tower actually applies to all groups of buildings that are more than 1/2 an inch high and that it 'obviously' meant a particular building that was recently damaged in some way. Of course, anything from complete destruction to particularly ugly wallpaper suggested by a colourblind decorator counts as the predicted destruction. Well, that's not entirely true. over the years many people have pointed out that the world will definately be destroyed at a particular time and this time they didn't make any mistakes. Afterwards they stand around looking really confused then completely forget about it because the leader has a new time and date that's definately correct this time and noone said the last one was certain anyway. The really sad thing is that if you point out to people that they are only able to "predict" things that have already happened they won't understand the problem.

12-10-2003, 03:03 PM	#3
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Hey, there may be something to that double-fulfillment prophecy bit. Perhaps Balaam's talking ass was prophetic of the election of Dubya...

12-12-2003, 08:45 PM	#6
sharon45 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Southwest, US Posts: 8,759	In Jewish belief, there is no such thing as a "double prophecy", and all the prophecies are already done as predicted except the prophecies concerning the "World to Come" beginning with the first arrival of the real Messiah.

12-14-2003, 09:19 AM	#7
Kattaz Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Romania Posts: 26	Bad or good, it's happening! Apocalips 18:1-24; 17:16.

12-15-2003, 02:51 PM	#9
Kattaz Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Romania Posts: 26	Thanks Theopage for the english version. As is evident, the Revelation doesn�t refer to entire city of New York, but only to the building of WTC. Because the only word used to describe the Babilon in your version is city, but the original word mean mostly �fortress� than city. If we take example of old jewish city, we see the fortress is equal with city, but if we go to roman empire and ancient Hellas, we see cities built around a fortress in which reside important peoples. That is the case of WTC in New York, and that explain why the Babel tower is linked to Babilon. P.S. Please excuse me my english mistakes who may appers.

12-15-2003, 05:08 PM	#10
Theophage Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Posts: 966	Hello Kattaz, Okay, I guess the big question is, why do you think that the Babylon in the Apocalypse of St. John refers to the WTC? I want specifics...

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