Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 09-23-2011, 12:23 AM

Earliest Known Images of Christ on Display at NYU: Exhibition highlights religious coexistence and multiculturalism

Quote:

This Friday, the earliest known images of Christ, from the year 240, go on view in New York for the first time, ... part of a remarkable exhibition at the relatively obscure N.Y.U. Institute for the Study of the Ancient World, a jewel-box of a museum on East 84th Street whose mission, according to exhibitions director Dr. Jennifer Chi, is “to break down preconceived notions of antiquity.”

“Edge of Empires: Pagans, Jews, and Christians at Roman Dura-Europos” does so with a vengeance, in presenting 77 objects from an excavation in Syria that fundamentally altered the understanding of art, culture and religion in the ancient world.
...

Art and artifacts of stunning historical importance were uncovered. The paintings of Christ are part of a series of New Testament scenes that exhibition co-curator Dr. Peter De Staebler said are “the earliest dated Christian art in existence.” Narratives painted on the walls of Dura’s large synagogue, considered the best-preserved in the world, revealed a Jewish figural tradition that had been totally unknown—that had, in fact, been thought to be nonexistent. The rediscovery of these painted Bible stories—among them, Moses and the Burning Bush, the Sacrifice of Isaac and the Exodus from Egypt with the astounding representation of the hands of God (on display by photo and slideshow; the originals are in Damascus)—sparked a revolution in thinking about art and Jewish religious practice.

The catalogue

PinkZinc · 09-24-2011, 04:17 PM

So that`s what Jesus and Moses looked like. I always thought they were a little taller.

Stringbean · 09-24-2011, 04:23 PM

Another stretch to prove their religion.......:deadhorse:

aa5874 · 09-24-2011, 07:10 PM

Are there any images of Marcion's Phantom Son of God?

If Jesus was the Child of a Ghost and people still manage to have images of him then surely images of Marcion's Phantom may be out there somewhere.

This can't be real.

Soon people will claim to have the earliest image of the Holy Ghost.

mountainman · 09-24-2011, 08:28 PM

One of the comments listed:

Quote:

Originally Posted by HistoryHuntersInternational

Nothing at Dura Europos can be a portrayal or description of 'Jesus Christ' because that term does not appear until long after the trading post was buried.

The character 'Is Chrest' appears first in Manicheism, which may well relate to Dura Europos, as both are third century and from the same region. This same character - 'Is Chrest' then appears in the Codex Sinaiticus of Constantine I (i.e. the New Testament) - and one should note how 'Chrest' translates as 'Good', which is not at all the same as 'Christ'/'Messiah'.
A good question would be: who is this Is/Isu/Isa? I do not translate this as 'Jesus', though clearly it is translated in that manner in the 4th century and later (when the Greek is confused with Latin).

mountainman · 09-26-2011, 02:35 AM

Healing of the Paralytic, Dura Europos (c.235)

Quote:

This wall painting, depicting the Healing of the Paralytic, is the earliest known representation of Jesus, dating from about 235 AD.

The painting was found in 1921 on the left-hand wall of the baptismal chamber of the house-church at Dura-Europos on the Euphrates River in modern Syria.

It is now part of the Dura Europos collection at the Yale University Gallery of Fine Arts.

On the right, the paralytic is on his bed. Top center, Christ is saying, "That you may know that the Son of Man has power to forgive sins: rise up, take up your bed and walk."

Isn't is amazing how some people can see these words evoked from the mural?

Quote:

On the left, the man takes his bed (a cot-like couch) and walks away. This story is appropriate for a baptismal chamber, in that it represents the forgiveness of sins.

That last sentence is hogwash.
The dude on the left does not look like he is walking away at all.
It looks like he is bringing a bed to where another bed already sits.

Have Yale tendered for second opinions on the Christian nature of these Dura motifs?

From here

Quote:

The most recent conservation of the paintings, undertaken at the Yale University Art Gallery in 2010, made use of new solvent mixtures to set down flaking paint and to remove excess glue, fill material, and coatings from the previous treatments in order to stabilize the paintings and make them more suitable for exhibition

Is Jesus the OverSeer?

Another interpretation of this image is that we have a drawing of incoming inpatients to the public hospital system at Dura Europos, and an overseer is registering and lining up the patients for the physicians.

Sheshbazzar · 09-26-2011, 06:32 PM

The possibilities are quite limitless, and as mountainman notes the cot carrier is clearly depicted as approaching, not as walking away.

No reasonable person would place such a made-up interpretation on this scene unless they had religious bias to make it fit.
Where does it say on the mural that there is anyone named Jebus (or Joshua) in that scene? Answer is; nowhere.
Where does it say that the person on the cot is a paralytic? Answer is; nowhere.
Perhaps it represents a person sleeping, or a sick person, perhaps they are coming to and being attended by a priest of Aesculapius.
It don't say. And there were a lot of various cults and their healers around at that time.

Nothing there indicates that this has to be a portrayal of the Nazarene.
And even if it is, it is no evidence at all that there ever was such a person.

mountainman · 09-26-2011, 08:15 PM

Are the paralytics pregnant ..... or ....... is Jesus in a maternity clinic?

mountainman · 09-26-2011, 08:22 PM

From the mural of the Dura-Europos-Yale Church House, a rendition of Jesus out walking upon the sea ....

Does anyone recognise this scene?
Where's Wally Jesus?

Perhaps its OB1 and Luke Seawalker?
The force is strong at the frontier of Dura.

GakuseiDon · 09-26-2011, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

From the mural of the Dura-Europos-Yale Church House, a rendition of Jesus out walking upon the sea ....

Does anyone recognise this scene?
Where's Wally Jesus?

Isn't he at bottom right, with Peter?

It certainly looks like the scene depicted in the Gospels. For example, Matt 14:

[24] But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.
[25] And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea...
[28] And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
[29] And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
[30] But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
[31] And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

The mural matches pretty well: the sea "tossed with the waves"; Peter and Jesus standing on the water, with Jesus stretching forth his hand to Peter, catching him.

How do you see it, Pete?

09-26-2011, 08:22 PM	#9
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Jesus out walking upon the sea .... From the mural of the Dura-Europos-Yale Church House, a rendition of Jesus out walking upon the sea .... Does anyone recognise this scene? Where's Wally Jesus? Perhaps its OB1 and Luke Seawalker? The force is strong at the frontier of Dura.

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09-24-2011, 04:17 PM	#2
PinkZinc Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 12	So that`s what Jesus and Moses looked like. I always thought they were a little taller.

09-24-2011, 04:23 PM	#3
Stringbean Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Southern United States Posts: 149	Another stretch to prove their religion.......:deadhorse:

09-24-2011, 07:10 PM	#4
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	Are there any images of Marcion's Phantom Son of God? If Jesus was the Child of a Ghost and people still manage to have images of him then surely images of Marcion's Phantom may be out there somewhere. This can't be real. Soon people will claim to have the earliest image of the Holy Ghost.

09-26-2011, 06:32 PM	#7
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The possibilities are quite limitless, and as mountainman notes the cot carrier is clearly depicted as approaching, not as walking away. No reasonable person would place such a made-up interpretation on this scene unless they had religious bias to make it fit. Where does it say on the mural that there is anyone named Jebus (or Joshua) in that scene? Answer is; nowhere. Where does it say that the person on the cot is a paralytic? Answer is; nowhere. Perhaps it represents a person sleeping, or a sick person, perhaps they are coming to and being attended by a priest of Aesculapius. It don't say. And there were a lot of various cults and their healers around at that time. Nothing there indicates that this has to be a portrayal of the Nazarene. And even if it is, it is no evidence at all that there ever was such a person.

09-26-2011, 08:15 PM	#8
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Are the paralytics pregnant ..... or ....... is Jesus in a maternity clinic?

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