Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bernard Muller · 12-26-2012, 05:12 PM

At about 33:00 in the broadcast, Richard Carrier said (regarding the 'Ascension of Isaiah' (AofI), about what was heard or seen by Isaiah when in heaven (ch. 7-10):
“Jesus was a pre-existent being, who is going to descend and assume a body, and devil and Satan and his demons were the ones to crucify and kill him in the firmament in the lower heavens.”

There are two problems with that statement:
Never in AofI, it is written,
a) Satan and his demons crucified and killed Jesus.
b) This crucifixion took place in the firmament and/or in the lower heavens.

Furthermore, Carrier said Isaiah, according to the text, witnessed later these things. Again not true. It is not here.

Can anyone prove me wrong?

Cordially, Bernard

aa5874 · 12-26-2012, 06:18 PM

I cannot understand why Carrier and Doherty attempted to claim Jesus was crucified in the sub-lunar using the Ascension of Isaiah when it is stated clearly that Jesus would descend into the WORLD and be crucified on a TREE.

The Ascension of Isaiah 9

Quote:

12. And he said unto me: "Crowns and thrones of glory they do not receive, till the Beloved will descent in the form in which you will see Him descent [will descent, I say] into the world in the last days the Lord, who will be called Christ.

13. Nevertheless they see and know whose will be thrones, and whose the crowns when He has descended and been made in your form, and they will think that He is flesh and is a man.

14. And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is.

In addition, once it is assumed the Pauline writings represent evidence for a Celestial Jesus then one must use Texts that PREDATED the Pauline writings to show that the Celestial Jesus predate the Jesus of the Gospels.

The Ascension of Isaiah has not been ever dated before the assumed early Pauline letters.

In effect, if it is assumed that the Ascension of Isaiah is about a Celestial Jesus then such character was developed AFTER the Pauline letters.

In the very Canonised Gospels it is clearly seen that the Pre-Existing Jesus is a later development found in gJohn.

In gMatthew and gLuke the Jesus character did NOT pre-exist but was Begotten by the Holy Ghost but in the Later gJohn Jesus pre-existed as God the Creator who was BEFORE anything was made.

The Pre-Existing Jesus in gJohn, the Pauline writings and the Ascension of Isaiah are ALL LATE developments.

Colossians 1

Quote:

....we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created , that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were createdby him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist .

The Pauline Pre-Existing Jesus, God the Creator, matches the LATE Pre-existing Jesus of gJohn.

John 1

Quote:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 The same was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made by him; and without him wasnot any thing made that was made .

aa5874 · 12-26-2012, 11:31 PM

No Jew or Roman citizen worshiped a Celestial Jesus up to 115 CE. It is time to dump the Pauline writings. They are historical garbage. They are products of fraud and fiction composed in the 2nd century or later. Not even the authors of the Canon used them. Just dump them.

Vespasian was the Messianic ruler as prophesied in Hebrew Scripture based on Jewish and Roman writers.

Josephus' Wars of the Jews" 6.5.4

Quote:

But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea.

Tacitus' Histories 5

Quote:

Some few put a fearful meaning on these events, but in most there was a firm persuasion, that in the ancient records of their priests was contained a prediction of how at this very time the East was to grow powerful, and rulers, coming from Judaea, were to acquire universal empire. These mysterious prophecies had pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, with the usual blindness of ambition, had interpreted these mighty destinies of themselves, and could not be brought even by disasters to believe the truth.

Suetonius' Life of Vespasian

Quote:

5 There had spread over all the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated at that time for men coming from Judaea to rule the world. This prediction, referring to the emperor of Rome, as afterwards appeared from the event, the people of Judaea took to themselves..

Duvduv · 12-27-2012, 12:56 AM

It is rather funny that the Josephus text or the Roman texts should have anu reliability about Jewish interpretstions when there is not a single Jewish religious text asserting a messianic role to Vespasian. Another indication that Josephus is highly questionable as to its authenticity.

stephan huller · 12-27-2012, 01:09 AM

Quote:

aa - They (the Pauline writings) are historical garbage. They are products of fraud and fiction composed in the 2nd century or later. Not even the authors of the Canon used them. Just dump them.

Said like a true student of history.

aa5874 · 12-27-2012, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It is rather funny that the Josephus text or the Roman texts should have anu reliability about Jewish interpretstions when there is not a single Jewish religious text asserting a messianic role to Vespasian. Another indication that Josephus is highly questionable as to its authenticity.

What??? So, Jewish religious texts are questionable because Roman writers did NOT mention them??? You seem to think that Jewish religious texts are inerrant and historically accurate. You live in a dream world.

Duvduv · 12-27-2012, 07:17 AM

As sources of information on the jewish views of such matters don't you think the thousands of pages would include SOMETHING on this issue?? And if NOTHING exists in the entire Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds and midrashim, doesn't that mean something in comparison with that reference in Josephus or even Tacitus or Suetonius?! You won't find such a reference to Vespasian in a single commentary either.
Even in a reference to Cyrus by way of comparison.

aa5874 · 12-27-2012, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

As sources of information on the jewish views of such matters don't you think the thousands of pages would include SOMETHING on this issue?? And if NOTHING exists in the entire Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds and midrashim, doesn't that mean something in comparison with that reference in Josephus or even Tacitus or Suetonius?! You won't find such a reference to Vespasian in a single commentary either.
Even in a reference to Cyrus by way of comparison.

There are thousands of pages of Roman writings that do NOT include anything found in Jewish writings so must we assume that Jewish writings are questionable???

Please, you are not making much sense. You very well know that the very Hebrew Bible is FULL of Myth Fables.

You must understand that Jewish writings are NOT always historically accurate and can also be WITHOUT corroboration.

Duvduv · 12-27-2012, 08:09 AM

Stop looking in abstractions. The fact is very simple: there are specific statements found in "Josephus" about the Jews and Judaism for which there is no corroboration whatsoever in any Jewish religious texts. What is so complicated to note that in this case there is NOTHING about the idea of Vespasian as messiah anywhere in any Jewish text?? And we know that the concept of the messiah is an important idea in traditional Jewish teachings.

The Talmud, etc. often mention ideas and claims to criticize or condemn them. In this case there is nothing.

And since a text like that of Irenaeus could be forged later on, so a text of Tacitus (like that of Pliny) could just as easily be forged in some monastery in the 15th century given the fact that the monasteries had a monopoly on all texts to which scholarship attributes various sources. So let's get things in perspective.

The idea that any observant Jew who had been a priest at the time of the Temple would consider a Roman pagan general the promised messiah of Judaism is ridiculous. It makes as much sense as the claim that "Paul" was a major student of Rabbi Gamliel, thereby making Paul a Tanna of that period. Another check on my list to confirm my suspicions that "Josephus" is itself a forgery, especially given the fact that there is no mention of him ANYWHERE in the same Jewish texts we were discussing. What makes Josephus so much more authentic and holy than the Book of Acts?! Or Against Heresies by "Irenaeus"?!

outhouse · 12-27-2012, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The fact is very simple: there are specific statements found in "Josephus" about the Jews and Judaism for which there is no corroboration whatsoever in any Jewish religious texts.

But have you figured out why? that is the real question.

My opinion here

Josephas was not a real Jew. he was also viewed as a traitor, if he was a real jew

God-fearers who worshipped Judaism thought themselves to be Jews, real Jews did not think so.

Now this isnt opinion. Judaism was wide and very diverse in the first century. probably more so then it has ever been. Its no wonder the only "ONE" branch of Judaism survived to tell its legends.

Its no suprise that these other sects writings did not survive.

12-26-2012, 05:12 PM	#111
Bernard Muller Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 927	Carrier and Ascension of Isaiah At about 33:00 in the broadcast, Richard Carrier said (regarding the 'Ascension of Isaiah' (AofI), about what was heard or seen by Isaiah when in heaven (ch. 7-10): “Jesus was a pre-existent being, who is going to descend and assume a body, and devil and Satan and his demons were the ones to crucify and kill him in the firmament in the lower heavens.” There are two problems with that statement: Never in AofI, it is written, a) Satan and his demons crucified and killed Jesus. b) This crucifixion took place in the firmament and/or in the lower heavens. Furthermore, Carrier said Isaiah, according to the text, witnessed later these things. Again not true. It is not here. Can anyone prove me wrong? Cordially, Bernard

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12-27-2012, 12:56 AM	#114
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	It is rather funny that the Josephus text or the Roman texts should have anu reliability about Jewish interpretstions when there is not a single Jewish religious text asserting a messianic role to Vespasian. Another indication that Josephus is highly questionable as to its authenticity.

12-27-2012, 07:17 AM	#117
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	As sources of information on the jewish views of such matters don't you think the thousands of pages would include SOMETHING on this issue?? And if NOTHING exists in the entire Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds and midrashim, doesn't that mean something in comparison with that reference in Josephus or even Tacitus or Suetonius?! You won't find such a reference to Vespasian in a single commentary either. Even in a reference to Cyrus by way of comparison.

12-27-2012, 08:09 AM	#119
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Stop looking in abstractions. The fact is very simple: there are specific statements found in "Josephus" about the Jews and Judaism for which there is no corroboration whatsoever in any Jewish religious texts. What is so complicated to note that in this case there is NOTHING about the idea of Vespasian as messiah anywhere in any Jewish text?? And we know that the concept of the messiah is an important idea in traditional Jewish teachings. The Talmud, etc. often mention ideas and claims to criticize or condemn them. In this case there is nothing. And since a text like that of Irenaeus could be forged later on, so a text of Tacitus (like that of Pliny) could just as easily be forged in some monastery in the 15th century given the fact that the monasteries had a monopoly on all texts to which scholarship attributes various sources. So let's get things in perspective. The idea that any observant Jew who had been a priest at the time of the Temple would consider a Roman pagan general the promised messiah of Judaism is ridiculous. It makes as much sense as the claim that "Paul" was a major student of Rabbi Gamliel, thereby making Paul a Tanna of that period. Another check on my list to confirm my suspicions that "Josephus" is itself a forgery, especially given the fact that there is no mention of him ANYWHERE in the same Jewish texts we were discussing. What makes Josephus so much more authentic and holy than the Book of Acts?! Or Against Heresies by "Irenaeus"?!

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