Damian

"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"

Is there any evidence to back up anything like this ever being said?

Iasion

Greetings,

Ever noticed that no source is ever given?

It seems this quote comes from a play called
"The Pageant of Popes"
by John Bale (1495-1563).


Iasion

Roger Pearse

Someone online mentioned here that it was by Alexander VI (Borgia), rather than Leo X, and was to be found in the diary of the former's Master of Ceremonies, John Burchard, for the year 1500, at the start of vol. 3 in the full Latin text:

Title Johannis Burchardi ... Diarium, sive rerum urbanarum
commentarii, 1483-1506. Texte lat., publ. par L. Thuasne.
Author Burchardus, Joannes bp. of CivitÃ* Castellana and Orte.
Publisher Par. 1883-85
Description 3 tom. ; (80)
Other Names Thuasne, Louis.

Only excerpts of this have been translated, but I took the trouble to look through that year in the original. I simply looked for the word 'Christ' -- one of rare occurance, I might add, in the affairs of Alexander VI -- and the 'quotation' was nowhere to be found.

The abbreviated English diary left me with at least one unpleasing image which I would much prefer not to have embedded in my soul. It also had an interesting scene where one Roman nobleman, imprisoned by the Borgia pope, wrote to the Pope protesting. He received the terrifying reply that he shouldn't worry about such things but take good care of his health. Sure enough, the prisoner promptly sickened and died, and Burchard records that he arranged for the funeral and took care to have as little to do with the matter as possible.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

fta

I never thought the day would come when I would refer people to a Tektonics article, but here goes: http://tektonics.org/lp/popeleox.html

Damian

Thanks, I found that site as well. Anyone know the origin of this quote being passed off as true? Is it really from atheist fringe positions like that of Acharya S as alleged in the article?

Roger Pearse

Atheism makes a lot of sense historically as a development of protestantism, and so the statements of John Bale, in a succeeding generation, could have fed into this.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Hazy

Atheism is older than Christianity.

Doug Shaver

Credit where due. His two updates were right on the money, too.

Roger Pearse

It's a good article, full of data. The bit about Jovius (Paulo Giovio) needs modification, tho, and I have written to him to say so. Someone needs to look through De vita Leonis X. It's 200+ pages, tho.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Vorkosigan

For the west, that's probably mostly true. Once people had managed to free themselves from the dictates of Rome and create spaces for their own conscience, it was inevitable that some would discover the truth. Although it is true that the Protestants, having killed the pope, attempted to raise a thousand little ones in his place. The center of control might be displaced, but the apparatus of control remained. Alas.

No, you can find it, I think in Forgery in Christianity. Its earliest use must date from the 19th century.

Vorkosigan