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The dating of "Christian" works?
There are many works, such as Didache and Odes of Solomon, and many Gnostic works, which are almost universally dated to mid first century or later because they make references to "Jesus Christ" or story elements that closely mirror Gospel story elements.
The establishment seems to date these in the grounds that Jesus existed and taught and died in the early 1st century, so all writings that contain Jesus Christ themes must come after this person's existence or after the Gospels, etc.
Is there a case for some of these works, such as Didache, Odes of Solomon, etc., being 1st century BCE works, or works from the first 30 years of the 1st century?
In other words, if we disregard the overriding methods of dating these, i.e. they mention Jesus so they have to come over 33 CE, are there any of these works that we would have reason to move to earlier dates, before the so-called existence of the Jesus of Gospels?
I've put forward to basic and admittedly crude cases for Dadiche and Odes of Solomon, but I'd like to see more on this.
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...history.htm#15
Quote:
The dating and significance of the next two works that we will look at are controversial, for there is not agreement as to when they were written or their relationship to the Christian tradition. Indeed this difficultly exists because of the nature of the works. Some scholars who see Gospel themes in these works believe that they must have been written after the Gospels. These works are The Odes of Solomon and Didache.
First let's look at The Odes of Solomon, which is very difficult to date. In fact, Biblical scholars date The Odes of Solomon after the writing of the Gospels based primarily on the fact that there are similar themes in The Odes of Solomon and the Gospels and scholars assume that the only explanation can be that the Odes copied from the Gospels, but as we shall see, there are good reasons to reject this claim and actually put The Odes of Solomon before the Gospels which could have far reaching implications for the Gospels.
The Odes of Solomon never mention the name Jesus, and several of the odes are very different from any known Christian ideas. I will present here the odes that contain seemingly Christian themes.
ODE 19:
1 A cup of milk was offered to me: and I drank it in the sweetness of the delight of the Lord. 2 The Son is the cup and He who was milked is the Father: 3 And the Holy Spirit milked Him: because His breasts were full, and it was necessary for Him that His milk should be sufficiently released; 4 And the Holy Spirit opened His bosom and mingled the milk from the two breasts of the Father and gave the mixture to the world without their knowing: 5 And they who receive in its fullness are the ones on the right hand. 6 The Spirit opened the womb of the Virgin and she received conception and brought forth; and the Virgin became a Mother with many mercies; 7 And she travailed and brought forth a Son, without incurring pain; 8 And because she was not sufficiently prepared, and she had not sought a midwife (for He brought her to bear) she brought forth, as if she were a man, of her own will; 9 And she brought Him forth openly, and acquired Him with great dignity, 10 And loved Him in His swaddling clothes and guarded Him kindly, and showed Him in Majesty. Hallelujah.
ODE 42:
1 I stretched out my hands and approached my Lord: 2 For the stretching of my hands is His sign: 2 My expansion is the outspread tree which was set up on the way of the Righteous One. 4 And I became of no account to those who did not take hold of me and I shall be with those who love me. 5 All my persecutors are dead; and they sought after me who hoped in me, because I was alive: 6 And I rose up and am with them; and I will speak by their mouths. 7 For they have despised those who persecuted them; 8 And I lifted up over them the yoke of my love; 9 Like the arm of the bridegroom over the bride, 10 So was my yoke over those that know me: 11 And as the couch that is spread in the house of the bridegroom and bride, 12 So is my love over those that believe in me. 13 And I was not rejected though I was reckoned to be so. 14 I did not perish, though they devised it against me. 13 Sheol saw me and was made miserable: 16 Death cast me up and many along with me. 17 I had gall and bitterness, and I went down with him to the utmost of his depth: 18 And the feet and the head he let go, for they were not able to endure my face: 19 And I made a congregation of living men amongst his dead men, and I spake with them by living lips: 20 Because my word shall not be void: 21 And those who had died ran towards me: and they cried and said, Son of God, have pity on us, and do with us according to thy kindness. 22 And bring us out from the bonds of darkness: and open to us the door by which we shall come out to thee. 23 For we see that our death has not touched thee. 24 Let us also be redeemed with thee: for thou art our Redeemer. 25 And I heard their voice; and my name I sealed upon their heads: 26 For they are free men and they are mine. Hallelujah.
ODE 24:
1 The Dove fluttered over the Messiah, because He was her head; and she sang over Him and her voice was heard: 2 And the inhabitants were afraid and the sojourners were moved: 3 The birds dropped their wings and all creeping things died in their holes: and the abysses were opened which had been hidden; and they cried to the Lord like women in travail: 4 And no food was given to them, because it did not belong to them; 5 And they sealed up the abysses with the seal of the Lord. And they perished, in the thought those that had existed from ancient times; 6 For they were corrupt from the beginning; and the end of their corruption was life: 7 And every one of them that was imperfect perished: for it was not possible to give them a word that they might remain: 8 And the Lord destroyed the imaginations of all them that had not the truth with them. 9 For they who in their hearts were lifted up were deficient in wisdom and so they were rejected, because the truth was not with them. 10 For the Lord disclosed His way and spread abroad His grace: and those who understood it, know His holiness. Hallelujah.
ODE 39:
1 Great rivers are the power of the Lord: 2 And they carry headlong those who despise Him: and entangle their paths: 3 And they sweep away their fords, and catch their bodies and destroy their lives. 4 For they are more swift than lightning and more rapid, and those who cross them in faith are not moved; 5 And those who walk on them without blemish shall not be afraid. 6 For the sign in them is the Lord; and the sign is the way of those who cross in the name of the Lord; 7 Put on, therefore the name of the Most High, and know Him and you shall cross without danger, for the rivers will be subject to you. 8 The Lord has bridged them by His word; and He walked and crossed them on foot: 9 And His footsteps stand firm on the water, and are not injured; they are as firm as a tree that is truly set up. 10 And the waves were lifted up on this side and on that, but the footsteps of our Lord Messiah stand firm and are not obliterated and are not defaced. 11 And a way has been appointed for those who cross after Him and for those who adhere to the course of faith in Him and worship His name. Hallelujah.
- The Odes of Solomon, ? (Most scholars say after 70 CE due to Gospel parallels)
These are the four main odes that lead scholars to date the work after the Gospels, and perhaps it was written after the Gospels, but there are serious issues to address. The most significant issue, I believe, is in relation to Ode 39. Ode 39 discusses walking on water, and Christian scholars believe that this passage must be patterned after the Gospel accounts of Jesus walking on water. Scholars who believe in the existence of Jesus presume that the story of walking on water in the Gospels was inspired by some real act Jesus performed, and thus this discussion of walking on water would have to be based on that event, it couldn't be the other way around, but let's take a closer look. Isaiah 43, from the Old Testament, reads as follows:
Isaiah 43:5-6:
"When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and when you pass through the rivers, they will not sweep over you. ... For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;" Read Ode 39 again. Now, Christian scholars claim that The Odes of Solomon were most likely influence by the Gospel of John, so I will compare this passage to the walking on water account from the Gospel of John, but you are free to compare it against the other Gospels as well, they compare no more favorably.
John 6:
16 When evening came, his disciples went down to the lake, 17 where they got into a boat and set off across the lake for Capernaum. By now it was dark, and Jesus had not yet joined them. 18 A strong wind was blowing and the waters grew rough. 19 When they had rowed twenty-five or thirty stadia, they saw Jesus approaching the boat, walking on the water; and they were terrified. 20 But he said to them, "It is I; don't be afraid." 21 Then they were willing to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat reached the shore where they were heading.
22 The next day the crowd that had stayed on the opposite shore of the lake realized that only one boat had been there, and that Jesus had not entered it with his disciples, but that they had gone away alone. 23 Then some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24 Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus. Read Ode 39 again. Clearly, if anything, the Gospel account copies from the ode, not the other way around. The ode is clearly, if anything, based on Isaiah 43, not the Gospel account. The ode talks about rivers, not a lake, and it says nothing about a boat. The passage from Isaiah says that the "Lord, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior," is the one who is with you, and that is certainly enough of a passage to arrive at the notion of the Lord Messiah being with you. There is really no question, Ode 39 is closer to Isaiah 43 than it is to John 6 (or Mark, Matthew, or Luke). If anything, the development of this theme seems to be from Isaiah 43 to Ode 39 to the Gospels, or both the Ode and the Gospels are independently derived from Isaiah 43.
Ode 24, if post-Gospel, deviates from the Gospels and is Gnostic in nature. Ode 42 discusses the stretching out of the hands (basically in the form of a cross) and mentions a tree set upon the way of the "Righteous One", but the references are cryptic and the rest of the passage does not really comply with the Gospel accounts. Ode 19 is even more bizarre, talking about the "milking" of God's breasts and a virgin birth.
If you visit the link you will see that the linked translation contains the notes of a Christian commenter, who seems puzzled by the passages. Christians are confused by this work because they feel that it has to come after the Gospels, because they realize that the similarities to the story of Jesus are too close for this to have been written before the life of Jesus, but I would argue that the differences between the odes and the Gospels are too much for the odes to have been based on the Gospels or the Christian story, unless it were a highly different version of the Christian story.
The work never mentions the name Jesus and has no solid tie-ins to the Gospels. I would argue that The Odes of Solomon are a possible step in the development of the Jesus Myth. The odes may well reflect a set of "pre-Jesus" ideas that later evolved and became a part of the Jesus story. That the ideas in the odes would evolve into the Jesus story seems much more likely than the Jesus story evolving into the odes. This position, however, is of course untenable to those who believe in the reliability of the Gospels.
We can now move on to another controversial work that has received even more attention, Didache. Didache is a work that was known to some of the early Christian apologists, but was later lost. A copy of Didache was rediscovered in the 19th century and the work has puzzled scholars ever since. Scholars do agree that Didache as we have it today has had some alterations to it over time, but most also agree that there is still much original in the work as well. Most scholars call Didache the oldest non-canon piece of Christian literature, but just how old it is is disputed.
Didache contains many sayings which are similar to those attributed to Jesus in the Gospels, especially in Matthew, but these sayings are not attributed to Jesus in Didache. The work is also considered highly Jewish in nature, using several Jewish themes. Didache also goes into extensive discussions about rules concerning the treatment of apostles and prophets, making no mention of disciples of Jesus, but rather apostles in general. Unlike The Odes of Solomon, however, Didache does briefly mention Jesus in two passages dealing with the ritual Thanksgiving meal.
Chapter 9:
1. Now concerning the Thanksgiving [Eucharist], thus give thanks.
2. First, concerning the cup: We thank you, our Father, for the holy vine of David Your servant, which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory for ever.
3. And concerning the broken bread: We thank You, our Father, for the life and knowledge which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory for ever.
4. Even as this broken bread was scattered over the hills, and was gathered together and became one, so let Your Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Your kingdom; for Yours is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever.
5. But let no one eat or drink of your Thanksgiving [Eucharist], but they who have been baptized into the name of the Lord; for concerning this also the Lord has said, Give not that which is holy to the dogs.
Chapter 10:
1. But after you are filled, thus give thanks:
2. We thank You, holy Father, for Your holy name which You caused to tabernacle in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality, which You made known to us through Jesus Your Servant; to You be the glory for ever.
3. You, Master almighty, created all things for Your name's sake; You gave food and drink to men for enjoyment, that they might give thanks to You; but to us Thou freely gave spiritual food and drink and life eternal through Your Servant.
4. Before all things we thank You that You are mighty; to You be the glory for ever.
5. Remember, Lord, Your Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Your love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Your kingdom which You have prepared for it; for Yours is the power and the glory for ever.
6. Let grace come, and let this world pass away. Hosanna to the God of David! If any one is holy, let him come; if any one is not so, let him repent. Maran atha. Amen.
7. But permit the prophets to make Thanksgiving as much as they desire.
- The Didache, ?(Most scholars date to some time between 50 and 120 CE) Christian scholar Burton Mack, of the Claremont School of Theology, had this to say about these passages in Didache:
The prayer of thanksgiving (eucharist) for the community meal in chapters 9 and 10 are also significant. That is because they do not contain any reference to the death of Jesus. Accustomed as we are to the memorial supper of the Christ cult and the stories of the last supper in the synoptic gospels, it has been very difficult to imagine early Christians taking meals together for any reason other than to celebrate the death of Jesus according to the Christ myth. But here in the Didache a very formalistic set of prayers is assigned to the cup and the breaking of bread without the slightest association with the death and resurrection of Jesus. The prayers of thanksgiving are for the food and drink God created for all people and the special, "spiritual" food and drink that Christians have because of Jesus. Drinking the cup symbolizes the knowledge these people have that they and Jesus are the "Holy Vine of David," which means that they "belong to Israel." Eating the bread symbolizes the knowledge these people have of the life and immortality they enjoy by belonging to the kingdom of God made known to them by Jesus, God's child. And it is serious business. No one is allowed to "eat or drink of your Eucharist except those who have been baptized in the Lord's name" (Did. 9:5). We thus have to imagine a highly self-conscious network of congregations that thought of themselves as Christians, had developed a full complement of rituals, had much in common with other Christian groups of centrist persuasions, but continued to cultivate their roots in a Jesus movement where enlightenment ethics made much more sense than the worship of Jesus as the crucified Christ and risen son of God.
- Burton Mack; Who Wrote the New Testament We can compare the passages from Didache to the Last Supper meal in the Gospel of Matthew to see the differences between the two:
Matthew 26:
26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."
27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom." As with The Odes of Solomon, is it more likely that the Gospel account would evolve into what we see in Didache, or that what we see in Didache would evolve into the Gospel account? Didache is a highly Jewish work, which has sayings in it that are similar to those in the Gospels, but not attributed to Jesus, and it contains rituals that cannot conceivably be tied to the Gospel accounts of similar rituals or the Gospel story.
In Didache we again see Jesus mentioned not as a real flesh and blood entity, but as a spiritual mediator, and the eucharist ritual in Didache makes no reference either the body or blood of Jesus.
Instead the eucharist ritual talks about bread that is scattered over the land and then collected together, which actually sounds very similar to the story of the dismemberment and scattering of the body of Osiris (also symbolized by bread), which was later collected together by Isis and resurrected, though this may just be a coincidence. The eucharist rituals in Didache really defy the Gospel account of the Christian story. It's not really conceivable how these rituals could have been inspired by the life, deeds, and words of Jesus if the Gospel accounts are accurate, which is something that most Christian scholars will not consider, so they instead try to gloss over this issue or explain it away as having been written by confused people. What makes far more sense, however, is that Didache represents a step in the evolution of the Christ myth, written by a people who had no concept of a human Jesus who had been on earth, and that these types of eucharistic rituals evolved over time and developed into the rituals that we find in the Gospels, focused on the "body" and "blood" of Christ. It is important to note that a eucharist ritual was also mentioned and practiced by Paul.
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01-21-2007, 05:41 AM
