Steven Carr

Page 88 of Did Jesus Exist is amazing.


'There is very little dispute that some of the Gospel stories originated in Aramaic, and they therefore go back to the earliest stages of the Christian movement in Palestine.'

'Very little dispute'?

Carrier claims the book misinforms readers.


How many people will now be told that even Bart Ehrman says 'there is very litle dispute....' that some Gospel stories go back to the earliest stages of the Christian movement in Palestine ( because they originated in Aramaic, you see).

Just how many years has Ehrman set back the state of knowledge about the Bible with just one little book aimed 'at a general audience'?

dog-on

It must be the new consensus, even Thom Stark says so:

andrewcriddle

If the stories originated in Aramaic, then they very probably go back to Palestine before the fall of Jerusalem. This is a weaker claim than that they go back to the earliest stages of the Christian movement in Palestine but it may be strong enough for Ehrman's purposes.

Andrew Criddle

MrMacSon

That some aspect(s) of the sum total of the many Gospel stories - the apocryphal & canonical stories - originated in Palestine (in Aramaic) is likely to be true.

Many of those fore-runner stories could have originated well before 1BC/BCE, too.

youngalexander

So If they probably go back to Palestine before 70AD this weaker claim may be strong enough for what purpose?

maryhelena

And of course - the Toldot Yeshu story has no mention of Pilate. Hence an early story (whenever written ..)that should be raising a red flag for historical research into early christianity....If the Pilate story was up and running - why place a Yeshu/Jesus story prior to the time of Pilate? A pre-Pilate Yeshu/Jesus story; some Aramaic in the gospel JC story that could place that story prior to 70 c.e. - and methinks some ahistoricists/mythicists need to do some reconsidering....No, of course not, there is no historical gospel JC - but there is Jewish history that needs to be put on the table. The gospel JC story is not just midrash, mythology and supernatural/magic stuff - it is also a mythologizing of Jewish history. And, since history does not stand still, developments in that JC storyboard would be the order of the day...Which would indicate that the JC storyboard has been long in its development - and that the Pilate end of the story is just that - the ending not the beginning...

andrewcriddle

If the stories go back to Palestine before 70 CE, then this would indicate that claims about a historical Jesus were being made in a time and place that allowed investigation into their truth and falsity.

Andrew Criddle

Vorkosigan

You'd have to have smoked the last of your crack and then ingested opium, followed by inducing unconsciousness via ketamine, to believe something as ridiculous as this. It just makes me want to scream.

maryhelena

Not quite....

It would indicate that people living prior to 70 c.e., may have been able, depending on how close to the gospel dating they lived, be able to see a reflection of a historical figure within that composite gospel JC figure. A reflection not a corresponding equation, i.e. such and such a historical figure is synonymous with the gospel JC figure. And that, after all is said and done, is nothing more than is sometimes claimed for any literary creation, either by the author/creator or his readers. A created literary figure is able to reflect more than one flesh and blood figure. So, what people back then would have been able to say is, 'ah, I see so and so reflected in that gospel JC story'. Others, perhaps living further back, could say they remember the history of such and such a figure - and that that historical figure is also seen to be reflected within the gospel JC story.

That's why, in time, when history became distant and foggy, that the gospel JC story itself became viewed as history. History was 'lost' - and the gospel mythologizing of history became viewed as history. (of course, with a little bit of help from Josephus and his 'historical' reconstructions/interpretations....)

youngalexander

Thank you. I read that several times before I gained some glimmer. We progress!