Roger Pearse

(I have snipped a huge number of demands as irrelevant).

The problem is the lack of proper evidence or, indeed, proper statement of what the proposition is. Until we have the latter we can't test it, surely?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

We get told all sorts of things. But where's the evidence that

1. Such a practice existed?
2. That caroling is derived from it?

I have no special opinion on whether the statement is true; I am merely growing ever more sceptical of the rush of pseudo-information on 'origins of Christmas'.

You would be most unwise to trust anything from Wikipedia. The 'summary' from Bede is very misleading, for instance.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

rlogan

With all due respect, Roger - you are doing exactly what you most protest. The default is not that Christmas is an independenty conceived Christian celebration having zero to do with the nearly universal acknowledgement of the solstice phenomenon.

If you are going to cast contemptuous stones at others, then be responsible enough to provide your positive evidence for what you insinuate. That is, when and why did Christians start celebrating Dec. 25 as "Christmas?" - especially since there is zero support for it scripturally. We have the inconsistency with the eastern church celebrating Jan. 6, so you ought to be able to explain why.

It is interesting to hear you allege that the megaliths - so precisely constructed and representing such immense collective effort in proportion to the resources of these peoples - are vague.

Such sites are the about the only archaeological evidence that remains from some cultures, predating christian myths by thousands of years.

So it is not inference, but rather observation of the immense import solstice played in these cultures. Scoffing at this seems to me unbecoming of a scholar.

Less "vague" (pfft) are ancient celebrations for which we have documentation such as Roman Saturnalia, Jewish Hanukkah, and
Mithraic traditions. We know for a fact that this time period is widely celebrated and predates Christianity.

So what are you on about with this sneering at everyone else but providing nothing of your own?

Cheers regardless.

gstafleu

Let me try a proper statement of the position.

1) The solar cycle and its attendant major events like the winter solstice and the vernal equinox were of great significance to pre-Christian people, as attested by e.g. Stonehenge.

2) To ascribe the fact that a major festivity of Christianity, Christmas, falls on, or very near, the winter solstice to coincidence stretches credulity (by, to be exact, a stretch-factor of 365/1): the most parsimonious explanation is that at the very least Christianity "borrowed" that date.

3) To try and describe the Christmas tree and its lights as not being symbolic in relation to the winter solstice, while that symbolism is plain to see and does not require any convoluted reasoning, stretches credulity: the most parsimonious explanation is that the Christmas tree and its lights are remnants of the old solstice festivities.

4) To try and both say that the date and the tree are not solstice related multiplies the improbabilities to a previously unreached low number.

5) It is habitual to have a midnight service on Christmas eve. Midnight is the lowest point of the sun in its daily cycle, the winter solstice is the lowest point of the sun in its yearly cycle. Again to say that this is coincidence... etc, you get the drift, including the multiplication of by now three improbabilities.

Now I could give some similar points relating to Easter: vernal equinox, service held early in the morning (sun halfway to its highest daily point, just as the equinox means the sun is halfway top its yearly high). We then have two major Christian festivities, no, the two major Christian festivities, with clear connections to the solar cycle, both in their dates an their details. In case of Christmas a lot of details, in case of Easter bit less. However the latter is mitigated by the fact that according to the OED the etymology for "Easter" contains the following: "Bæda Temp. Rat. xv. derives the word from Eostre (Northumb.spelling of Éastre), the name of a goddess whose festival was celebrated at the vernal equinox; her name (:-OTeut. *austrôn-cogn. w.Skr. usra-dawn; see east) shows that she was originally the dawn-goddess." Dawn, early in the morning, sun half-way up, vernal equinox, I take it you see the relation?

So I'm not providing a series of unconnected ad hoc explanations, rather I'm giving a coherent frame of explanations.

I hope I have now clearly stated the position.

Gerard Stafleu

rlogan

Much can be added. For example, the Jewish Festival of Lights (Hannukah), predating the Christians by millenia, does have the story attached to it about reclaiming the temple and having only enough oil to light the temple lamp for a day.

But give me a break - as if adding light to the darkest part of the year needs any explanation at all. Duh.

Sure, that light gets conflated with whatever religious symbolism predominates as the ages go by. But adding light to darkness needs no explanation. It is self-evident.

Are we to propose, for example, that this would be the time of year to throw hoods over our heads and lengthen the darkness?

cajela

Abolutely! It's been bloody hot and dry, and we could really use some nice cooler days.

rlogan, it may amuse you, as well as support your point slightly, to know that Xmas in July has become quite popular in Australia.

rlogan

Interesting, and it did indeed occur to me to wonder about the Southern Hemisphere and its traditions - we don't have so much data from there.

cajela

Well, most of us colonials derive ours from the British tradition. (I think I speak for Aus, SA & NZ here.) But the nature of the celebration jars a little. Heavy feasting in midsummer is not comfortable, and it's a bit hard to have carols by candlelight and tree lighting ceremonies for the kiddies when it's not dark until after their bedtime... We muddle along, varying things a bit here and there to suit. Seafood dinners and beach cricket are major new traditions here. Big family dinners with carol singing in July are not official winter holidays yet, but growing in popularity all the time.

I am now curious if there is any aboriginal or maori tradition about the solstices. I've not heard of any, but we're sadly not well educated on that sort of thing here.

Roger Pearse

If I understand you correctly, the proposition is that "Christianity borrowed the date" (of Christmas) from earlier celebrations. This is not stated based on data, but from the proposed existence of earlier pagan events during the back-half of the month of December, as a "parsimonious" explanation? (I've tried to use your own words, so that I don't misrepresent).

Now Christmas is first celebrated on that date in Rome, if I understand correctly. So what we need to see is what Roman festivals exist in the period; then we need to see some evidence that Christians chose the date, not to extirpate celebrations but to 'borrow' it -- so that we can truly say 'Christmas is a pagan festival.' Surely? Without this we are merely expressing uninformed opinions.

Now I have not done this -- nor anyone else, as far as I can tell -- but I can tell you that no pagan festival is documented as occurring on 25 Dec. prior to the Chronography of 354. (I think myself that the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti must have been celebrated on that date before Christmas, but I merely draw attention to the lack of data).

I can tell you also that ps. Chrysostom in the 5th century says that the date of Christmas was chosen to compete with a solar festival. If I recall correctly Augustine says something similar.

But none of this will support the "borrowing" idea.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Writer@Large

According to Ronald Hutton, who's done all the footwork in his The Stations of the Sun, the official calendar of Julius Ceaser placed the Winter Solstice on December 25th, though the more common practice was to label the range of dates between December 23rd to December 26th as the Solstice. Hutton further cites the late fourth century Christian writer, the Scriptor Syrus, as plainly stating that the Church leaders chose December 25th because of Roman festivals that were being celebrated at that time period.

--W@L