Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Richbee · 01-15-2006, 08:56 PM

There is evidence for an early Divine, Risen, or resurrected Jesus the Christ or Jesus the Jewish Messiah!

Creeds and Hymns

I quote J.P. Moreland from a free book excerpt posted on the web:

Paul’s letters contain a number of creeds and hymns (Rom. 1:3-4;1 Cor. 11:23 ff.;15:3-8; Phil. 2:6_11; Col.1:15-18;1 Tim. 3:16; 2 Tim. 2:8; see also John 1:1-18; 1 Peter 3:18-22; 1 John 4:2). Three things can be said about them. First, they are pre-Pauline and very early. They use language which is not characteristically Pauline, they often translate easily back into Aramaic, and they show features of Hebrew poetry and thought-forms. This means that they came into existence while the church was heavily Jewish and that they became standard, recognized creeds and hymns well before their incorporation into Paul's letters. Most scholars date them from 33 to 48 A.D.. Some, like Hengel, date many of them in the first decade after Jesus’ death.

Second, the content of these creeds and hymns centers on the death, resurrection, and deity of Christ. They consistently present a portrait of a miraculous and divine Jesus who rose from the dead. Third, they served as hymns of worship in the liturgy of the early assemblies and as didactic expressions for teaching the Christology of the church.

In sum, the idea of a fully divine, miracle-working Jesus who rose from the dead was present during the first decade of Christianity. Such a view was not a legend which arose several decades after the crucifixion.

Galatians 1 and 2

All scholars agree that Galatians was written by Paul. Paul tells us that he received his understanding of who Jesus was and what he did from a supernatural experience within a year or two after the crucifixion. He also points out that he went to Jerusalem three years later and the apostles there agreed that his message of a divine Son of God who was crucified and rose from the dead was correct. (End of first quote)

Read Paul's testimony, in:

Galatians 1:11 - 18 "..the gospel I preach is not something man made up.." "..I persecuted the Church and tried to destroy it...I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews, and extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers...verse 18: "Then after three years I stayed with Peter, James, etc, in Jerusalem. ( ~ 33 or 35 A.D.)

J.P. Moreland concludes:

There is no reason to doubt that Paul visited the apostles, since he has no dear motive for lying and, further, such a visit fits well with the Jewish practice of looking to authorized teachers of a rabbi's doctrines for controls on doctrinal purity.

Thus, belief in a divine, risen Jesus was in existence within just a few years after his death.

Source: Excerpt from Scaling the Secular City - By J.P. Moreland - Chapter 5: The Historicity of the New Testament

pharoah · 01-15-2006, 10:32 PM

Where does it say in Galatians that Paul and the pillars agreed to anything? What it does say is that they preached two distinct gospels, that Paul accused the pillars of being "false apostles", that Paul considered Peter to be a dissembler, and that Paul believed that the pillars were spying on him and perverting his gospel. For Moreland to use Galatians as an example of early Christian unity is beyond belief.

Steven Carr · 01-15-2006, 11:48 PM

Do 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus also use language that is not characteristically Pauline?

How easy is it to tell, on stylistic grounds, that Paul was not the originator of certain passages?

Clivedurdle · 01-16-2006, 12:00 AM

Ellegard uses these hymns as evidence that Jesus was 100 BCE.

The only reason for dating 33 - 48 CE is to tie in with the alleged dates in the NT - tautology.

mikem · 01-16-2006, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

Where does it say in Galatians that Paul and the pillars agreed to anything? What it does say is that they preached two distinct gospels, that Paul accused the pillars of being "false apostles", that Paul considered Peter to be a dissembler, and that Paul believed that the pillars were spying on him and perverting his gospel. For Moreland to use Galatians as an example of early Christian unity is beyond belief.

Galatians 2: 7 "when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised..."( one gospel, two different target audiences) "for he who worked through Peter for the circumcised, worked through me also for the gentiles". Paul recognises the unity of the church insofar as both He and Peter are doing the work of the Holy Spirit.

They also gave tro Paul and Barnabas the RIGHT HAND OF FELLOWSHIP - a sign that both sides were in accord. This is a question of strategy for spreading the gospel, not a substantial difference over what that gospel is.

darstec · 01-16-2006, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikem

Galatians 2: 7 "when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised..."( one gospel, two different target audiences) "for he who worked through Peter for the circumcised, worked through me also for the gentiles". Paul recognises the unity of the church insofar as both He and Peter are doing the work of the Holy Spirit.

They also gave tro Paul and Barnabas the RIGHT HAND OF FELLOWSHIP - a sign that both sides were in accord. This is a question of strategy for spreading the gospel, not a substantial difference over what that gospel is.

Robert Price and others make a very good case for that passage being a interpolation. Paul amost exclusively uses Cephas except in four passages which have been considered interpolation.

pharoah · 01-16-2006, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galatians 2 (NASB)

9and recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

10They only asked us to remember the poor--the very thing I also was eager to do.

11But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

12For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.

13The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

14But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikem

Galatians 2: 7 "when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised..."( one gospel, two different target audiences) "for he who worked through Peter for the circumcised, worked through me also for the gentiles". Paul recognises the unity of the church insofar as both He and Peter are doing the work of the Holy Spirit.

Just look at verse 14, where Paul accuses Peter of not being "straightforward about the truth of the gospel". This would make no sense if they were merely preaching the same gospel to two different audiences, but it makes perfect sense if Paul believes that Peter is distorting his gospel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikem

They also gave tro Paul and Barnabas the RIGHT HAND OF FELLOWSHIP - a sign that both sides were in accord. This is a question of strategy for spreading the gospel, not a substantial difference over what that gospel is.

The events that transpire after this supposed agreement makes it clear that Paul believed that the "reputed pillars" - note his sarcasm - broke their agreement. He even said that Barnabas betrayed his trust. The very fact that Paul publicly aired their differences is compelling evidence that he felt very bitter towards the pillars and didn't see eye-to-eye with them on the contents of the gospel. The remainder of Galatians is an attempt by him to repair the "damage" that the pillars wrecked on the church.

Richbee · 01-17-2006, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Do 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus also use language that is not characteristically Pauline?

How easy is it to tell, on stylistic grounds, that Paul was not the originator of certain passages?

Hahahahahaha

:rolling:

Richbee · 01-17-2006, 08:03 AM

2 Peter 1

16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." [See: Matt. 17:5; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:35] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

robto · 01-17-2006, 10:41 AM

Richbee: sorry, but "all scholars agree" (at least a large majority) that 2 Peter was not written by the same person as 1 Peter, and certainly not written by the apostle.

01-15-2006, 08:56 PM	#1
Richbee Banned Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Falls Church, Virginia Posts: 264	Jesus Christ - Early Creeds and Hymms in favor of Divine, Risen Jesus as Christ There is evidence for an early Divine, Risen, or resurrected Jesus the Christ or Jesus the Jewish Messiah! Creeds and Hymns I quote J.P. Moreland from a free book excerpt posted on the web: Paul’s letters contain a number of creeds and hymns (Rom. 1:3-4;1 Cor. 11:23 ff.;15:3-8; Phil. 2:6_11; Col.1:15-18;1 Tim. 3:16; 2 Tim. 2:8; see also John 1:1-18; 1 Peter 3:18-22; 1 John 4:2). Three things can be said about them. First, they are pre-Pauline and very early. They use language which is not characteristically Pauline, they often translate easily back into Aramaic, and they show features of Hebrew poetry and thought-forms. This means that they came into existence while the church was heavily Jewish and that they became standard, recognized creeds and hymns well before their incorporation into Paul's letters. Most scholars date them from 33 to 48 A.D.. Some, like Hengel, date many of them in the first decade after Jesus’ death. Second, the content of these creeds and hymns centers on the death, resurrection, and deity of Christ. They consistently present a portrait of a miraculous and divine Jesus who rose from the dead. Third, they served as hymns of worship in the liturgy of the early assemblies and as didactic expressions for teaching the Christology of the church. In sum, the idea of a fully divine, miracle-working Jesus who rose from the dead was present during the first decade of Christianity. Such a view was not a legend which arose several decades after the crucifixion. Galatians 1 and 2 All scholars agree that Galatians was written by Paul. Paul tells us that he received his understanding of who Jesus was and what he did from a supernatural experience within a year or two after the crucifixion. He also points out that he went to Jerusalem three years later and the apostles there agreed that his message of a divine Son of God who was crucified and rose from the dead was correct. (End of first quote) Read Paul's testimony, in: Galatians 1:11 - 18 "..the gospel I preach is not something man made up.." "..I persecuted the Church and tried to destroy it...I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews, and extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers...verse 18: "Then after three years I stayed with Peter, James, etc, in Jerusalem. ( ~ 33 or 35 A.D.) J.P. Moreland concludes: There is no reason to doubt that Paul visited the apostles, since he has no dear motive for lying and, further, such a visit fits well with the Jewish practice of looking to authorized teachers of a rabbi's doctrines for controls on doctrinal purity. Thus, belief in a divine, risen Jesus was in existence within just a few years after his death. Source: Excerpt from Scaling the Secular City - By J.P. Moreland - Chapter 5: The Historicity of the New Testament

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01-15-2006, 10:32 PM	#2
pharoah Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,729	Where does it say in Galatians that Paul and the pillars agreed to anything? What it does say is that they preached two distinct gospels, that Paul accused the pillars of being "false apostles", that Paul considered Peter to be a dissembler, and that Paul believed that the pillars were spying on him and perverting his gospel. For Moreland to use Galatians as an example of early Christian unity is beyond belief.

01-15-2006, 11:48 PM	#3
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Do 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy and Titus also use language that is not characteristically Pauline? How easy is it to tell, on stylistic grounds, that Paul was not the originator of certain passages?

01-16-2006, 12:00 AM	#4
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Ellegard uses these hymns as evidence that Jesus was 100 BCE. The only reason for dating 33 - 48 CE is to tie in with the alleged dates in the NT - tautology.

01-17-2006, 08:03 AM	#9
Richbee Banned Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Falls Church, Virginia Posts: 264	2 Peter 1 16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." [See: Matt. 17:5; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:35] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

01-17-2006, 10:41 AM	#10
robto Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 701	Richbee: sorry, but "all scholars agree" (at least a large majority) that 2 Peter was not written by the same person as 1 Peter, and certainly not written by the apostle.

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