Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gurugeorge · 04-30-2004, 10:09 AM

I've been doing a bit of research on these terms, though I don't know how reliable it might be. I'd be interested in what people have to say around this topic.

Apparently in the Greek world "Chrestos" (meaning "good", a fairly common name in the Greek world) was sometimes confused with "Christos" ("anointed"); the confusion was so common it was mentioned by some of the apologists and fathers.

Both terms are known to go back long before 0 CE. (e.g. tombstone inscriptions), and are connected with the Mysteries (probationers to the Mysteries were sometimes called "Chrestos", and initiates sometimes called "Christos"; Osiris was called "Chrestos"). And "Chrestos" was in Christian use up to the 3rd century CE to describe the Messiah (e.g. Marcionite Synagogue inscription).

Plugging this into the MJ theory we have the following hypothetical (I know it's pretty much Freke & Gandy, but it has a bit of a wrinkle):-

There was a broad-based movement from about 400 BCE to 300 CE that represented a sort of democratisation of the Mysteries, an opening-up of the essentially personal salvation gained through the hitherto secretive Mysteries, to ordinary folks. This movement gradually became known as "Chrestian" or "Christian". One strand of this broad-based movement was a Jewish version of the Mysteries using the Messiah figure in lieu of a local Godlet. Because Jews were "cool" (in an exotic way, e.g. comparable to Tibetans nowadays) and monotheism was cool and anti-establishment, the Jewish version of this "Chrestian" movement became very popular, and because of the coincidence of "Messiah" and "Christian" (both "anointed"), the term "Christian" became more popular for this strand of the broad-based personal salvation movement. At some point roundabout the 2nd century CE, and for several possible reasons, the "Christ" figure of this strand came to be belived to have been an actual historical figure.

Comments? Thoughts? The main thing about it, I suppose, is that it's possible to think of the "Christian" movement in much broader terms, deeply connected with the Mysteries, and as going back a lot further in time, as something already established and on-going in the Hellenized world, in relation to which the Jewish version was a relative latecomer.

spin · 04-30-2004, 10:57 PM

I'm aware of the use of the name "Chrestus" in Suetonius, a name usually equated to "Christus". Beyond that I have no specific knowledge of the use of "Chrestus/os", so if you could supply some references to its usage, I'd be happy to contemplate the significance a little more.

spin

Toto · 04-30-2004, 11:52 PM

I've read something about this, but it all seems speculative, although plausible. It could just be linguistic confusion. The Theosophists are very big on finding some esoteric meaning behind Chrestos.

From Words with heathen origins in the Scriptures

Quote:

According to The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, the word Christos was easily confused with the common Greek proper name Chrestos, meaning "good." According to a French theological dictionary, it is absolutely beyond doubt that Christus and Chrestus, and Christiani and Chrestiani were used indifferently by the profane and Christian authors of the first two centuries A.D.

. . .

According to Tertullian and Lactantius, the common people usually called Christ Chrestos.

From Did Jesus Live 100 BC?

Quote:

we know that "Chrestus" is still sometimes found in MSS. where we should expect "Christus"; we know further that Tertullian ("Apol.," iii.), at the beginning of the third century, accuses the Romans of so mispronouncing the name of Christ, and from Lactantius ("Institt.," iv. 7), a century later, that it was still a common custom".

. . .

The most ancient dated Christian inscription (Oct. 1, 318 A.D.) runs "The Lord and Saviour Jesus the Good" — Chrestos, not Christos. This was the legend over the door of a Marcionite Church, and the Marcionites were Anti-Jewish Gnostics, and did not confound their Chrestos with the Jewish Christos (Messiah).

gurugeorge · 05-01-2004, 03:28 AM

The damnable thing is, the reason this has always been nagging at me is that I used to have this late-19th century monograph that I'd picked up in a second hand bookshop, written by one of those old gentlement-of-leisure types of English amateur archaeologists, who'd done a study of tombstones from the ancient world, and found a fair number of mucho BCE "Chrestus" inscriptions, often in a context that suggested connection with the Mysteries.

Bloody lost the thing in a basement flood a few years ago!

Can't remember the guy's name, or the title of the monograph. Tantalising.

Yeah, the Theosophists seem to be on to this one quite a lot, but although I wouldn't go so far as to say they're necessarily always totally unreliable, they aren't totally trustworthy either (I mean, I think their intuitions about how these sorts of things connect up are sometimes suggestive, but they're not very rigorous).

Some of the stuff I've seen from a guy called Alvin Boyd Kuhn looks extremely interesting (in terms of being a very coherent story that makes sense of lots of stuff), but again ... (I think that MJ Canadian Christian Tom Harpur uses lots of Kuhn in his "The Pagan Christ".)

I'm going to try and look for some more solid scholarly references on this, I think.

gurugeorge · 05-01-2004, 04:38 AM

An article on Marcion and Marcionites has some more info. about how Marcionites used "Chrestus" to distance themselves from the Jewish/Messiah connection; and some possibly interesting info. on codexes Siniaticus' and Vaticanus' probably having "Chrestian" and "Chreistian" respectively.

Also, found some more references for church fathers mentioning this "confusion", at a Christian website:-

Justin Martyr (Apol., I, 4), Clement of Alexandria (Strom., II, iv, 18), Tertullian (Adv. Gentes, II), and Lactantius (Int. Div., IV, vii, 5), as well as St. Jerome (In Gal., V, 22).

There's some checkable stuff at this somewhat kooky looking website:-

Quote:

Our research into this matter has produced some revealing similarities between Christos and certain pagan names and titles. F.D. Gearly, writing in The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 1, pp. 571-572, says, "the word Christos ... was easily confused with the common Greek proper name Chrestos, meaning 'good'." He also quotes a French theological dictionary which says, "It is absolutely beyond doubt that Christus and Chrestus, Christiani and Chrestiani, were used indifferently by the profane and Christian authors of the first two centuries of our era." he continues, "in Greek, 'e' and 'i' were similarly pronounced and often confused, the original spelling of the word should be determined only if we could fix its provenance (origin). ... The problem is further complicated by the fact that the word Christianos is a Latinism ... and was contributed neither by Jews nor by the Christians themselves." He quotes various scholars to support his proposition that the word Christianos was introduced from one of three origins: (a) The Roman police (b) The Roman populace (c) Unspecified pagan provenance (origin)." he then proceeds, "The three occurences of 'Christian' in the NT suggest that the term was at this time primarily used as a pagan designation. Its infrequent use in the NT indicates not so much lateness of origin as pagan provenance (origin)."

This almost sensational admission as to the confusion and uncertainty between Christos and Chrestos, Christus and Chrestus, Christiani and Chrestiani, is well documented and shared and published by other scholars too,201 as well as by the Early Fathers: Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Lanctantius and others.201 This confusion and uncertainty can only encourage and encourage us to return to the only Source of Truth, the Word, the Scriptures, before it was translated into the languages of the pagans. Only then can we find peace in the truth of Yahush�a being the Anointed, the One promised to Israel.

Who was this Chrestos or Chreston with which Christos became confused with? We have already seen that Chrestos was a common Greek proper name, meaning "good". further, we see in Pauly-Wissowa, Realencyclopaedie, under "Chrestos", that the inscription Chrestos is to be seen on a Mithras relief in the Vatican. We also read in J.M. Robertson, Christianity and Mythology, p. 331, that Osiris, the Sun-deity of Egypt, was reverenced as Chrestos. We also read of the heretic Gnostics who used the name Chreistos.202 The confusion, and syncretism, is further evidenced by the oldest Christian building known, the Synagogue of the Marcionites on Mt. Hermon, built in the 3rd century, where the Messiah's title or appellation is spelt Chrestos.203 Justin Martyr (about 150 C.E.) said that Christians were Chrestoi or "good". Tertullian and Lactantius inform us that "the common people usually called Christ Chrestos". Clement of Alexandria, in the same age, said, "all who believe in Christ are called Chrestoi, that is 'good men.'"203

The word Christos could even have been more acceptable to the Krishna-worshippers, because the name of Krishnawas pronounced, and still is to the present day, as Krista, in many parts of India.204Thus, we can readily see that the word Christos was easier to convert the pagans with than the word "Messiah", especially because of the anti-Judaism that prevailed among the pagans. The syncretism between Christos and Chrestos (the Sun-deity Orsiris), is further elucidated by the fact of emperor Hadrian's report, who wrote, "There are there (in Egypt) Christians who worship Serapis; and devoted to Serapis, are those who call themselves 'Bishops of Christ'."198 Serapis was another Sun-deity who superseded Osiris in Alexandria. Once again, we must not falter nor stumble over this confusion among the Gentiles. Rather, we must seek the truth, primarily from the faithfully preserved Old testament Scriptures - see 2 Tim. 3:16, John 17:17, Ps. 119:105, Isa 40:8. We must worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth, as well as His Son, Yahush�a the Messiah, Who is sitting at His right hand. We do accept every word in the New Testament, but we do desire to return to the original Scriptures of the New Testament, as far back as we possibly can. As previously mentioned, the Greeks changed Elijah into Helias in the Greek New Testament, and the Helios-worshippers must have been overjoyed because of their Sun-deity being assimilated to the Elijah of the Scriptures. To avoid the confusion between Helias and Helios, we should abide by the Hebrew "Elijah". Likewise, to avoid confusion between Christos and Chrestos, we should abide by the word Anointed - remembering that Osiris the Sun-deity, amongst others, was called Chrestos. Mithras too, was possibly called Chrestos (see above).

OK, there isn't much more on the web beyond the things on this thread. Will dig deeper when I have a chance to go to a proper library (London University).

spin · 05-01-2004, 10:51 PM

This is all Lewis and Short's Latin Dictionary provides on Chrestus:

A mutilated form for Christus, Lact. 4, 7, 5; hence, Chrestiani, instead of Christiani, was used by many; cf. Tert. Apol. 3 fin.--
A Jew at Rome under the emperor Claudius, Suet. Claud. 15;--
A slave or freedman of Cicero, Cic. Fam. 2, 8, 1.

I could find nothing direct related to the form xrestos in Greek.

[Ed.:] I've just discovered that it isn't xrestos in Greek, but xrhstos. And I'll now have a look through the information . . . Oh, and there seems to be something about xreist- being related to prophecy . . .

I have seen a few untraceable references to Serapis being called Chrestus on the web and Serapis is a development from Osiris. It would be good to have some primary sources for this.

spin

gurugeorge · 05-02-2004, 05:19 AM

My suspicion on the Serapis reference is it probably comes from JM Robertson's "Pagan Christs" via Theosophy. I've seen the reference around too - there's even a cite somewhere saying some of the Serapis muck-a-mucks were called "Bishops of Christ"!

Utu · 05-02-2004, 12:33 PM

Spin, the statement about Serapis's worshippers being called Bishops of Christ comes from Hadrian's letter to Servianus in Vopiscus's Vita Saturnini, 8, which is available in Latin here.

Also, I have seen "Chrestus" refer to rulers, probably in the sense all ready mentioned, "the great" or "the good" such as Mithradates Chrestus *, and Gaius Cassius Chrestus. According to Granius Licinianus (scroll down to 91; or not, since the important parts are highlighted.):

Quote:

Socrates was given a splendid reception by Mithridates, who even called him Chrestus ("the good"), as a better name.

The Socrates mentioned is not the philosopher.

Also, supposedly, there is a reference to a Chrestus in one of Cicero's letters. Chrestus was a compiler of information and published newspaper-like documents. They were often rumor-filled, which is what Cicero's comment has to do with. I've been unable to find the letter, though. The reference I got it from was a German website. However, Perseus may have it somewhere. (I'll add: I've been looking again, and can't even find the website I got it from. Oh well.)

I hope this helps.

* Try the asterisk link too. It's an alternate spelling: Mithridates instead of Mithradates.

spin · 05-03-2004, 02:50 AM

Good show. I don't think that with these attestations of the use of the name "Chrestus" from Latin sources that there can be any doubt as to the reality of the name "Chrestus". I still don't know what to make of the bishops of Christ. I think I could make a fair case for mistake on the part of the writer.

This sentence ipse ille patriarcha cum Aegyptum venerit, ab aliis Serapidem adorare, ab aliis cogitur Christum seems to make some separation between them two (those who adore Serapis and those gathered by Christ), which doesn't seem to be clear to the writer. As I don't understand Latin, the difficulty could just be mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utu

Spin, the statement about Serapis's worshippers being called Bishops of Christ comes from Hadrian's letter to Servianus in Vopiscus's Vita Saturnini, 8, which is available in Latin here.

Also, I have seen "Chrestus" refer to rulers, probably in the sense all ready mentioned, "the great" or "the good" . . .

Also, supposedly, there is a reference to a Chrestus in one of Cicero's letters. Chrestus was a compiler of information and published newspaper-like documents. They were often rumor-filled, which is what Cicero's comment has to do with. I've been unable to find the letter, though.

One can find the Cicero mention of "Chrestus" here. in the first line of text.

spin

His Noodly Appendage · 02-18-2006, 11:49 PM

Mmm, cheetohs.

[/wackyparse]

04-30-2004, 10:09 AM	#1
gurugeorge Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,210	Chrestos and Christos I've been doing a bit of research on these terms, though I don't know how reliable it might be. I'd be interested in what people have to say around this topic. Apparently in the Greek world "Chrestos" (meaning "good", a fairly common name in the Greek world) was sometimes confused with "Christos" ("anointed"); the confusion was so common it was mentioned by some of the apologists and fathers. Both terms are known to go back long before 0 CE. (e.g. tombstone inscriptions), and are connected with the Mysteries (probationers to the Mysteries were sometimes called "Chrestos", and initiates sometimes called "Christos"; Osiris was called "Chrestos"). And "Chrestos" was in Christian use up to the 3rd century CE to describe the Messiah (e.g. Marcionite Synagogue inscription). Plugging this into the MJ theory we have the following hypothetical (I know it's pretty much Freke & Gandy, but it has a bit of a wrinkle):- There was a broad-based movement from about 400 BCE to 300 CE that represented a sort of democratisation of the Mysteries, an opening-up of the essentially personal salvation gained through the hitherto secretive Mysteries, to ordinary folks. This movement gradually became known as "Chrestian" or "Christian". One strand of this broad-based movement was a Jewish version of the Mysteries using the Messiah figure in lieu of a local Godlet. Because Jews were "cool" (in an exotic way, e.g. comparable to Tibetans nowadays) and monotheism was cool and anti-establishment, the Jewish version of this "Chrestian" movement became very popular, and because of the coincidence of "Messiah" and "Christian" (both "anointed"), the term "Christian" became more popular for this strand of the broad-based personal salvation movement. At some point roundabout the 2nd century CE, and for several possible reasons, the "Christ" figure of this strand came to be belived to have been an actual historical figure. Comments? Thoughts? The main thing about it, I suppose, is that it's possible to think of the "Christian" movement in much broader terms, deeply connected with the Mysteries, and as going back a lot further in time, as something already established and on-going in the Hellenized world, in relation to which the Jewish version was a relative latecomer.

05-01-2004, 10:51 PM	#6
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	This is all Lewis and Short's Latin Dictionary provides on Chrestus: A mutilated form for Christus, Lact. 4, 7, 5; hence, Chrestiani, instead of Christiani, was used by many; cf. Tert. Apol. 3 fin.-- A Jew at Rome under the emperor Claudius, Suet. Claud. 15;-- A slave or freedman of Cicero, Cic. Fam. 2, 8, 1. I could find nothing direct related to the form xrestos in Greek. [Ed.:] I've just discovered that it isn't xrestos in Greek, but xrhstos. And I'll now have a look through the information . . . Oh, and there seems to be something about xreist- being related to prophecy . . . I have seen a few untraceable references to Serapis being called Chrestus on the web and Serapis is a development from Osiris. It would be good to have some primary sources for this. spin

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04-30-2004, 10:57 PM	#2
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	I'm aware of the use of the name "Chrestus" in Suetonius, a name usually equated to "Christus". Beyond that I have no specific knowledge of the use of "Chrestus/os", so if you could supply some references to its usage, I'd be happy to contemplate the significance a little more. spin

05-01-2004, 03:28 AM	#4
gurugeorge Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,210	The damnable thing is, the reason this has always been nagging at me is that I used to have this late-19th century monograph that I'd picked up in a second hand bookshop, written by one of those old gentlement-of-leisure types of English amateur archaeologists, who'd done a study of tombstones from the ancient world, and found a fair number of mucho BCE "Chrestus" inscriptions, often in a context that suggested connection with the Mysteries. Bloody lost the thing in a basement flood a few years ago! Can't remember the guy's name, or the title of the monograph. Tantalising. Yeah, the Theosophists seem to be on to this one quite a lot, but although I wouldn't go so far as to say they're necessarily always totally unreliable, they aren't totally trustworthy either (I mean, I think their intuitions about how these sorts of things connect up are sometimes suggestive, but they're not very rigorous). Some of the stuff I've seen from a guy called Alvin Boyd Kuhn looks extremely interesting (in terms of being a very coherent story that makes sense of lots of stuff), but again ... (I think that MJ Canadian Christian Tom Harpur uses lots of Kuhn in his "The Pagan Christ".) I'm going to try and look for some more solid scholarly references on this, I think.

05-02-2004, 05:19 AM	#7
gurugeorge Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,210	My suspicion on the Serapis reference is it probably comes from JM Robertson's "Pagan Christs" via Theosophy. I've seen the reference around too - there's even a cite somewhere saying some of the Serapis muck-a-mucks were called "Bishops of Christ"!

02-18-2006, 11:49 PM	#10
His Noodly Appendage Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 6,513	Mmm, cheetohs. [/wackyparse]

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