Freethought & Rationalism Archive

finallygotitright · 10-30-2005, 02:24 PM

I have been very careful to not expose my daughter to shame based religions and have tried to lead them on a path of ethics. Recently she was invited to a church service by boyfriend. Questions need to be addressed. I am looking for a a book or two that I can give to her covering the bible as well general protestant beliefs. I am not looking for a hard hammering dialogue but something that explains the basis of christian religion wth a rational critque. Thanks in advance

David B · 10-30-2005, 03:12 PM

It doesn't critique Christianity, but it does tell things pretty much like it is. And make the point that there are no, nor need to be any, skyhooks.

'Darwin's Dangerous Idea' by Daniel Dennett!

A great book - which, when you think about it, allows you to keep ideas one wants to keep, like truth, morals, love, and so lead away from the horror of nihilism.

I suspect that many religious people maintain their religion because their intuition tells them that to deny religion is also to deny concepts like meaning, right and wrong, purpose and love.

They are wrong, of course.

But once it is clear that denying skyhooks does not entail throwing away what humans hold valuable, then religion does not become tempting, IMV.

David B (really thinks this is a fine book)

mata leao · 10-30-2005, 05:00 PM

finally, maybe you should be happy that he invited her to church and not to a Marilyn Manson heavy metal concert. The Christian "ethics" of eschewing sexual immorality, substance abuse, pornography, drugs and alcoholism, and seeking to feed the hungry, heal the sick and comfort widows and orphans aint exactly a bad ethical code either. I would recommend "More than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell. Jesus Christ isnt a bad ethical model either.

Toto · 10-30-2005, 11:44 PM

I'd prefer a Marilyn Manson concert, myself.

You don't say how old your daughters are. If they are old enough, they might appreciate something like Bertram Russell's Why I am not a Christian, or Thomas Paine's Age of Reason.

Do you know which church it is? It is very easy for teenagers to get sucked into cult-like organizations, which are skilled at manipulating young minds. You might consider some material from Freedom of Mind.

You will know enough to see the problems of the preceding post:

More than a Carpenter by Josh McDowell: read this review

Quote:

I read this book, along with other books by the same author, several years ago and at the time I was quite convinced that McDowell's arguments were valid. (This short book is essentially an overview of some of the simpler arguments found in McDowells other volumes.) It is only fair to say, however, that if one has time for a little research in conjunction with reading this book, it will be apparent to them that the arguments are far from having any solid evidential foundation, as I later found out.

Most easily refuted is the infamous "proof" for the divinity of Jesus. It goes that Jesus was "Lord, Liar or Lunatic." (We must apparently choose one of these possibilities according to McDowell in order to get to our verdict.) It is apparent immediately that this "proof" does not encompass the full realm of possibilities if one puts forth any thought toward the subject. What if the stories of Jesus where embellished by future generations of writers? This embellishment happens so frequently in the evolution of mythologies that it is a wonder how McDowell neglected to include it as a possibility. It is also possible, however unlikely it may be, that the man Jesus never existed. Therefore, we have the choice between at least five possibilities, not just the three that McDowell puts forth.

Any person on a quest for truth needs to start with a set of facts from an epistemologically responsible source and compare them to the biased "research" in question in order to dismiss false premises. A little thinking with a small amount of unbiased research will most likely leave the reader with the opposite conclusion of what the book implies. For instance, Tom Clancy books correspond nicely to structures around today, such as the pentagon and White House etc. Although the novels describe buildings that exist in reality, is no reason to believe the storyline is true. Archeological evidence for the Bible is therefore not valid for proving its truth; it only means that the writers knew of the existence of buildings and cities of their time.

youngalexander · 10-31-2005, 12:30 AM

finallygotitright
Since your daughter is old enough to have a boyfriend, I assume that you have raised her according to the values that your family deems appropriate.

Do you really require 'a book'? Why not go with the flow, accept the wisdom of your families' values?

I have experienced this situation. Our next door neighbours were very devout Catholics and our three children grew up with their four children of similar ages. They were, and remain, close friends. My children were invited to mass. Parenting is an ever learning experience. It came as a bit of a shock, but I thort it thru. By their teenage years they had absorbed probably as much of 'my, our family' culture as they would need. I had brought them up to think independently - it was time to let them do so. I sed, yes.

Of course, you must judge your own circumstances. Parenting ain't easy.

Wads4 · 10-31-2005, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mata leao

finally, maybe you should be happy that he invited her to church and not to a Marilyn Manson heavy metal concert. The Christian "ethics" of eschewing sexual immorality, substance abuse, pornography, drugs and alcoholism, and seeking to feed the hungry, heal the sick and comfort widows and orphans aint exactly a bad ethical code either. I would recommend "More than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell. Jesus Christ isnt a bad ethical model either.

I agree that some Christian ethics are very good, but they are not unique, being common to all civilised communities and idealistic philosophies. Unfortunately Christians don't always practice what they preach,-which is the problem caused by trying to aspire to impossible goals of good behaviour. There are not many saints around, and those who Christians consider saints might not be seen as such in the eyes of others;--Mother Teresa being one such example. There are plenty of Christian alcoholics, wife-beaters, drug abusers and child abusers--including in the Clergy itself. So they should be careful when adopting a holier-than-thou approach to other people.

finallygotitright · 10-31-2005, 05:40 AM

I appreciate the replies. She is 22 and is more curious of what all the praying and hoopla is about that she sees at work. She is completing her nursing undergrad. What I hope to find is something that explains Christian positions, perhaps a little history, honest history, and then a critque of fallacies of the bible. I beleive a heavy disertation would not be appropriate. She has seen the result of fundamentalism and has tuned out there "Control" message. When asked at school if she believes she smiles and replies that people have a right to believe whatever they want. Immediately she is attacked for lack of following there religious BS. So I am not afraid of cult activity. The church she attented is a main stream one. Thanks for the advice.

robto · 10-31-2005, 06:48 AM

I'd suggest Jesus : A Revolutionary Biography , by John Dominic Crossan. He's an outstanding New Testament scholar, and this short book gives a carefully considered view about what is fact and what is fiction in the accounts of Jesus's life.

10-30-2005, 02:24 PM	#1
finallygotitright Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Omaha Posts: 7	I need your suggestions I have been very careful to not expose my daughter to shame based religions and have tried to lead them on a path of ethics. Recently she was invited to a church service by boyfriend. Questions need to be addressed. I am looking for a a book or two that I can give to her covering the bible as well general protestant beliefs. I am not looking for a hard hammering dialogue but something that explains the basis of christian religion wth a rational critque. Thanks in advance

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10-30-2005, 03:12 PM	#2
David B Contributor Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Wales Posts: 11,620	It doesn't critique Christianity, but it does tell things pretty much like it is. And make the point that there are no, nor need to be any, skyhooks. 'Darwin's Dangerous Idea' by Daniel Dennett! A great book - which, when you think about it, allows you to keep ideas one wants to keep, like truth, morals, love, and so lead away from the horror of nihilism. I suspect that many religious people maintain their religion because their intuition tells them that to deny religion is also to deny concepts like meaning, right and wrong, purpose and love. They are wrong, of course. But once it is clear that denying skyhooks does not entail throwing away what humans hold valuable, then religion does not become tempting, IMV. David B (really thinks this is a fine book)

10-30-2005, 05:00 PM	#3
mata leao Banned Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: tampa,florida Posts: 342	finally, maybe you should be happy that he invited her to church and not to a Marilyn Manson heavy metal concert. The Christian "ethics" of eschewing sexual immorality, substance abuse, pornography, drugs and alcoholism, and seeking to feed the hungry, heal the sick and comfort widows and orphans aint exactly a bad ethical code either. I would recommend "More than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell. Jesus Christ isnt a bad ethical model either.

10-31-2005, 12:30 AM	#5
youngalexander Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mornington Peninsula Posts: 1,306	finallygotitright Since your daughter is old enough to have a boyfriend, I assume that you have raised her according to the values that your family deems appropriate. Do you really require 'a book'? Why not go with the flow, accept the wisdom of your families' values? I have experienced this situation. Our next door neighbours were very devout Catholics and our three children grew up with their four children of similar ages. They were, and remain, close friends. My children were invited to mass. Parenting is an ever learning experience. It came as a bit of a shock, but I thort it thru. By their teenage years they had absorbed probably as much of 'my, our family' culture as they would need. I had brought them up to think independently - it was time to let them do so. I sed, yes. Of course, you must judge your own circumstances. Parenting ain't easy.

10-31-2005, 05:40 AM	#7
finallygotitright Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Omaha Posts: 7	I appreciate the replies. She is 22 and is more curious of what all the praying and hoopla is about that she sees at work. She is completing her nursing undergrad. What I hope to find is something that explains Christian positions, perhaps a little history, honest history, and then a critque of fallacies of the bible. I beleive a heavy disertation would not be appropriate. She has seen the result of fundamentalism and has tuned out there "Control" message. When asked at school if she believes she smiles and replies that people have a right to believe whatever they want. Immediately she is attacked for lack of following there religious BS. So I am not afraid of cult activity. The church she attented is a main stream one. Thanks for the advice.

10-31-2005, 06:48 AM	#8
robto Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Maryland Posts: 701	I'd suggest Jesus : A Revolutionary Biography , by John Dominic Crossan. He's an outstanding New Testament scholar, and this short book gives a carefully considered view about what is fact and what is fiction in the accounts of Jesus's life.

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