Freethought & Rationalism Archive

xaxxat · 03-21-2007, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

I think in the context it means God is a moral being, and he made humans as moral beings, with free will.

That's what Genesis 1 and 2 seem to be about, after all.

If he's moral, why did he set Adam and Eve up for the fall?

Gamera · 03-21-2007, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xaxxat

If he's moral, why did he set Adam and Eve up for the fall?

You mean by giving them free will? The question answers itself.

Gamera · 03-21-2007, 04:01 PM

[QUOTE=John Kesler;4281344]

Quote:

You have answered your own objection, because as you say, it is clear when metaphorical language is being used. We may today describe people as rocks and refuges, and it is just as clear that such language is not to be taken literally.

That's because we have bodies that you and I can see and touch. There is no evidence that God does, or at least, God doesn't have a body like we do, or we could point to him and say, as I can say about you, he has a body.

Quote:

This is a non sequitur and begged question.

People with bodies don't usually appear as a burning bush or a pillar of cloud. So if God has a body it's a body that it so different from what we (or the ancient Hebrews) meant by body, that the word becomes meaningless. In that sense, it's hardly irrelevant. If you appeared sometimes as a man and sometime as a burning bush, I for one would have my doubts about your real form.

Quote:

Where does this passage say that being "spirit" equals being incorporeal? And even if being "spirit" and having a body were somehow incompatible, all this would show is another contradiction in the Bible.

It doesn't, but if you insist that being spirit is coterminous with being corporeal then you have drained meaning from both terms.

Gamera · 03-21-2007, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

This is the sophisticated explanation for those who need to justify hanging on the story. But I see nothing in the story about morality. Wisdom and knowledge yes. "Knowing" (= experiencing?) good and evil, yes. It's not obvious that those things have anything to do with our preoccupations with free will or ethics.

The bit about being made in his image (really 'our image' which can be taken as either a plural of majesty for one being or an indication of a collection of deities as i understand it) is in the context of creating a caretaker (who turns out to be plural) for his brand new creation. Someone was needed to "subdue" it to keep it habitable and their payment was free feed. The obvious creature to create for this purpose would be one in the creator's image. -- to signify that he was the boss over all the other creatures shaped differently. No morality or free will issues at all.

So what were the issues preoccupying those who produced these sorts of stories?

Neil Godfrey

http://vridar.wordpress.com

The capacity to make choices is the essence of morality and the essence of the story. Genesis 2 is about nothing if not making choices.

John Kesler · 03-22-2007, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

That's because we have bodies that you and I can see and touch. There is no evidence that God does, or at least, God doesn't have a body like we do, or we could point to him and say, as I can say about you, he has a body.

I agree that God doesn't have a body, because I doubt that "God" exists. What we are talking about is whether the ancient Hebrews' conception was that their God had a "body," and your assertion above begs the very question under discussion. The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible states the following, emphasis mine:

Quote:

Though no..."form" was seen at Horeb, it is not denied that God has a form, and that he has is clearly the implication of certain theophanies described in the OT (e.g. Isa. 6; Ezek. 1).

I would also add that Genesis 5:1-3, in speaking of Adam's relationship to his son Seth, uses the same words used in Genesis 1:26-27:

Quote:

5:1 This is the list of the descendants of Adam. When God created humankind, he made them in the likeness of God. 2 Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them "Humankind" when they were created.
3 When Adam had lived one hundred thirty years, he became the father of a son in his likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.

Additionally, one obvious belief of the Israelites, apparent in the Torah and elaborated on in the NT book of Hebrews, is "as in heaven, so on earth," and just as God was conceived as having a throne, an army, etc., it is not unreasonable, especially in light of other evidence, to infer that God had a body as did his earthly representatives "made in his image."

neilgodfrey · 03-22-2007, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

The capacity to make choices is the essence of morality and the essence of the story. Genesis 2 is about nothing if not making choices.

The context is the philosophy of the literary culture that produced our Bible. It's about fearing God and the inevitable conflict between humanity and the deity. The notion of "capacity" to make choices and being defined as "free moral agents" would be foreign to the authors. They had to choose, but the decision was in terms of fear of God, submission to or rebellion against one's place.

Wisdom will make Adam and Eve like gods and then they will die.

They eat of wisdom, and the wisdom they learn is that they are naked. That is what their wisdom is: knowledge of their nakedness.

They have become as gods and then are sentenced to death.

All their wisdom does for them is to cause them to see they are naked, and then die.

Wisdom literature tells the same story. Solomon or the Preacher pursues wisdom in vain, only to learn he knows nothing, is naked, and will die. True wisdom is the fear of God.

Biblical literature pushes the fear of God as the only true wisdom. Humanity, like gods, pursuing wisdom can only end in vanity, nothing, death.

Yep, this implies Genesis is a sophisticated story from the same literary culture that produced Ecclesiastes et al, as per The Mythic Past (Thompson).

Neil Godfrey

http://vridar.wordpress.com

Gamera · 03-22-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

I agree that God doesn't have a body, because I doubt that "God" exists. What we are talking about is whether the ancient Hebrews' conception was that their God had a "body," and your assertion above begs the very question under discussion. The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible states the following, emphasis mine:
"

This is clearly contradicted by the theme (I cited earlier) that to see what God really is is to perish. If God simply had the form of a man, presumably, seeing him wouldn't result in instantaneous death. The implication of this theme, which runs throughout Genesis and other Hebrew scriptures is that God is so unlike what we can imagine that to actually see what he is is lethal.

Gamera · 03-22-2007, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

The context is the philosophy of the literary culture that produced our Bible. It's about fearing God and the inevitable conflict between humanity and the deity. The notion of "capacity" to make choices and being defined as "free moral agents" would be foreign to the authors. They had to choose, but the decision was in terms of fear of God, submission to or rebellion against one's place.

Wisdom will make Adam and Eve like gods and then they will die.

They eat of wisdom, and the wisdom they learn is that they are naked. That is what their wisdom is: knowledge of their nakedness.

They have become as gods and then are sentenced to death.

All their wisdom does for them is to cause them to see they are naked, and then die.

Wisdom literature tells the same story. Solomon or the Preacher pursues wisdom in vain, only to learn he knows nothing, is naked, and will die. True wisdom is the fear of God.

Biblical literature pushes the fear of God as the only true wisdom. Humanity, like gods, pursuing wisdom can only end in vanity, nothing, death.

Yep, this implies Genesis is a sophisticated story from the same literary culture that produced Ecclesiastes et al, as per The Mythic Past (Thompson).

Neil Godfrey

http://vridar.wordpress.com

To fear God is a choice, or it wouldn't be an issue.

ImjustHere · 03-22-2007, 02:24 PM

Why does everyone go with the Judo christian god there are many gods in the mythologies including christian mythology.
There is no god never was it was created by the leaders of peoples to control those they wanted to control.
So while your at it lets all worship Odin or Thor or some North american gods?

WWJD4aKlondikeBar · 03-22-2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamera

You mean by giving them free will? The question answers itself.

An omniscient being would be unable to grant free will, eh?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-22-2007, 02:24 PM	#19
ImjustHere New Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 1	Why does everyone go with the Judo christian god there are many gods in the mythologies including christian mythology. There is no god never was it was created by the leaders of peoples to control those they wanted to control. So while your at it lets all worship Odin or Thor or some North american gods?

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.