Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spin · 02-12-2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

It reminds me of the GK Chesterton quote: "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried."

That's the sort of rhetoric the assuredness of centuries of hegemony leads to. It has nothing to do with reality, just religious smugness and elitism.

spin

Solo · 02-12-2009, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicandReason

Why do Christians not sell all their earthly possessions and go follow their Lord? Was this just a suggestion? :huh:

I've heard it argued that Jesus was specifically talking to the RYR, because of the RYR's love of money. It's about how people can obey God and still be attached to the world. Whether this is the meaning of the story or not, I can't say. The passage is part of a longer one dealing with "Who can be saved?" I think the verses that come after are an important part of what is being said:

Luk 18:18 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Luk 18:19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
Luk 18:20 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.'!"
Luk 18:21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth."
Luk 18:22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
Luk 18:23 But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich.
Luk 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, "How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!
Luk 18:25 "For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Luk 18:26 And those who heard it said, "Who then can be saved?"
Luk 18:27 But He said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."
Luk 18:28 Then Peter said, "See, we have left all and followed You."
Luk 18:29 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
Luk 18:30 "who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life."

I have noted that Luke & Mat left out the Markan parts of Jesus training his eye on the young man and "loving" him (relating to case #3 in the sower parable Mk 4:19, which accounts for him hearing the word), bidding him to take up the cross, and revealing that those who leave their families and possessions shall receive - before the everlasting life - a hundredfold of brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, children and lands (where the gospel is preached), with persecutions (Mk 10:30).

The original Markan tale illustrated the works of the spirit and the negative consequences that following "Jesus" as a model entailed "in this world". Matt and Luke thought it wise not to discourage their reader who unlike Mark's was presumed to be a believer, without also being a connoisseur of the spirit.

Jiri

trendkill · 02-12-2009, 04:32 PM

Luke 23 seems to suggest that it is not impossible for a rich man to be worthy:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke 23, KJV

50And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just:

51(The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them

he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God.

52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.

53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

So he was "good" and "just" and "looked for the kindgom of God", yet he was well-off enough to donate a tomb for Jesus's burial.

Sheshbazzar · 02-12-2009, 05:33 PM

There were perhaps a lot of "good" men, and "just" men, but with respect to the New Testament's salvation message,
Was/is only being "good" and "just" sufficient to be saved? What christian church teaches that?

A good and just man would need to do more than donate a tomb, to be obedient to the NTs teachings.

So many wealthy show up at church on Sunday's and make big and extravagant "donations" out of their accumulated wealth,
then return to the comfort of their mansions to celebrate their generosity.
And of course there is no lack of preachers that are willing to settle for receiving much less than the "ALL" that the keeping of the Faith requires.
A rich man wishes to join the Church, he has over $5,000,000 in assets, out of which he "generously donates" $500,000
What preacher does not fall all over himself to receive that person into his congregation?
The problem is, that the congregation that preacher heads, is his congregation, and not The Lord's congregation.
Were that preacher truly the servant of The Lord, he would, as Jesus did, say;
"GO, and sell ALL that thou hast, and GIVE the money to The Poor" (that is to say, to The "E'bon'eem", The collective congregation of the Lord)
And stand fast even as Peter did, requiring the turning over of 100% of the proceeds generated out of the disposal of that rich mans $5,000,000 in assets,
so that this one would become e'bon, (poor) -for the kingdomof Heavens sake- One equal amongst the e'bon'eem (the Poor ones) indeed.
For that man retaining only $4.5 million of his wealth can never enter into the congregation of the Lord, or into the fellowship of The E'bon'neem.
It is ALL or nothing. No matter how much, or how little one might have to "SELL... and GIVE". ALL were to DO so.

Men say that they are "Christians" and have faith, but it is only idle speech until they put THEIR MONEY where their mouth is.
Trust in The Lord to feed, cloth, and shelter you?
Trust your life into the care of His Church, His body here on earth?
Love to sing the praises of The Lord in the midst of HIS congregation? (or is it only lip service?)
Then PUT YOUR MONEY where you mouth is.
Not some of it "Ananias", but ALL of it; Every last cent. "SELL ALL that you have, and GIVE ALL of your wealth to The Poor" that by becoming poor, you might be rich.
Else your money perish with you.

Transient · 02-12-2009, 06:23 PM

If god is real then he wants hearts not money.
He does not need money.
If getting a person to give all they have is the only way for them to be free to worship him honestly and in truth then that is the way it is.
I do not believe that such a god would require everyone to go down the same path. Some are able to obey god without being too attached to money, others not so able.
One could give all their possessions to the poor and still not please god if they did not give their heart to him.
Anyway the amount of money that people have is very relative - what is considered not much in one culture might seem like a hell of a lot in another culture.
This thread is better suited to a christian forum maybe for christians to argue about.

GakuseiDon · 02-12-2009, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo

I have noted that Luke & Mat left out the Markan parts of Jesus training his eye on the young man and "loving" him (relating to case #3 in the sower parable Mk 4:19, which accounts for him hearing the word), bidding him to take up the cross, and revealing that those who leave their families and possessions shall receive - before the everlasting life - a hundredfold of brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, children and lands (where the gospel is preached), with persecutions (Mk 10:30).

"With persecutions"!

Interesting that Luke also has Jesus promising returns in this life (though without the persecutions -- I'm a liberal Christian so I'll go with Luke on this one):

Luk 18:29 So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
Luk 18:30 "who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life."

trendkill · 02-12-2009, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

A good and just man would need to do more than donate a tomb, to be obedient to the NTs teachings.

The point isn't that giving away tombs guarantees salvation, the point is that it shows he was rich enough to have a brand new tomb to donate in the first place. So he is on the one hand wealthy, and on the other he is a fan of Jesus who is good and just and looks for the kindgom of God. On what basis are we to assume that he's not saved? If being rich is a deal-breaker for salvation, shouldn't he be portrayed by the NT as some sort of charlatan or hypocrite? Yet he is only described as good and pious.

Sheshbazzar · 02-12-2009, 09:35 PM

The narrative does not tell us what Joseph of Arimathia did after the Resurrection.

However, IF he chose to become a public "disciple" of Jesus, rather than remaining just a closet "disciple" of Jesus,
he would have boldly Acted upon the preaching of Acts 2:37-46, and would have sold All of his houses, lands, and possessions,
and came and laid the proceeds at the Apostles feet (Acts 4:32-35)

What do you think, Did this "good" and "just" man, after the Day of Pentecost, and hearing the preaching of Peter and the Apostles, just continue to secretly skulk around amongst the Jews, rather than surrendering his ALL to the cause?

Wooster · 02-12-2009, 10:59 PM

Someone please PM me when they find a christian among those calling themselves Christians. I have a hard time understanding what the mega churches has to do with the message allegedly preached by Jesus and how bigotry, xenophobia and denial of reality fits into picture painted by the NT.

Roger Pearse · 02-13-2009, 01:07 AM

Rather than quote-mining the text, perhaps we might ask what the early church did. We see from Acts that there were different views on this.

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02-12-2009, 05:33 PM	#14
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	There were perhaps a lot of "good" men, and "just" men, but with respect to the New Testament's salvation message, Was/is only being "good" and "just" sufficient to be saved? What christian church teaches that? A good and just man would need to do more than donate a tomb, to be obedient to the NTs teachings. So many wealthy show up at church on Sunday's and make big and extravagant "donations" out of their accumulated wealth, then return to the comfort of their mansions to celebrate their generosity. And of course there is no lack of preachers that are willing to settle for receiving much less than the "ALL" that the keeping of the Faith requires. A rich man wishes to join the Church, he has over $5,000,000 in assets, out of which he "generously donates" $500,000 What preacher does not fall all over himself to receive that person into his congregation? The problem is, that the congregation that preacher heads, is his congregation, and not The Lord's congregation. Were that preacher truly the servant of The Lord, he would, as Jesus did, say; "GO, and sell ALL that thou hast, and GIVE the money to The Poor" (that is to say, to The "E'bon'eem", The collective congregation of the Lord) And stand fast even as Peter did, requiring the turning over of 100% of the proceeds generated out of the disposal of that rich mans $5,000,000 in assets, so that this one would become e'bon, (poor) -for the kingdomof Heavens sake- One equal amongst the e'bon'eem (the Poor ones) indeed. For that man retaining only $4.5 million of his wealth can never enter into the congregation of the Lord, or into the fellowship of The E'bon'neem. It is ALL or nothing. No matter how much, or how little one might have to "SELL... and GIVE". ALL were to DO so. Men say that they are "Christians" and have faith, but it is only idle speech until they put THEIR MONEY where their mouth is. Trust in The Lord to feed, cloth, and shelter you? Trust your life into the care of His Church, His body here on earth? Love to sing the praises of The Lord in the midst of HIS congregation? (or is it only lip service?) Then PUT YOUR MONEY where you mouth is. Not some of it "Ananias", but ALL of it; Every last cent. "SELL ALL that you have, and GIVE ALL of your wealth to The Poor" that by becoming poor, you might be rich. Else your money perish with you.

02-12-2009, 06:23 PM	#15
Transient Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 412	If god is real then he wants hearts not money. He does not need money. If getting a person to give all they have is the only way for them to be free to worship him honestly and in truth then that is the way it is. I do not believe that such a god would require everyone to go down the same path. Some are able to obey god without being too attached to money, others not so able. One could give all their possessions to the poor and still not please god if they did not give their heart to him. Anyway the amount of money that people have is very relative - what is considered not much in one culture might seem like a hell of a lot in another culture. This thread is better suited to a christian forum maybe for christians to argue about.

02-12-2009, 09:35 PM	#18
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The narrative does not tell us what Joseph of Arimathia did after the Resurrection. However, IF he chose to become a public "disciple" of Jesus, rather than remaining just a closet "disciple" of Jesus, he would have boldly Acted upon the preaching of Acts 2:37-46, and would have sold All of his houses, lands, and possessions, and came and laid the proceeds at the Apostles feet (Acts 4:32-35) What do you think, Did this "good" and "just" man, after the Day of Pentecost, and hearing the preaching of Peter and the Apostles, just continue to secretly skulk around amongst the Jews, rather than surrendering his ALL to the cause?

02-12-2009, 10:59 PM	#19
Wooster Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Middle of an orange grove Posts: 671	Someone please PM me when they find a christian among those calling themselves Christians. I have a hard time understanding what the mega churches has to do with the message allegedly preached by Jesus and how bigotry, xenophobia and denial of reality fits into picture painted by the NT.

02-13-2009, 01:07 AM	#20
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Rather than quote-mining the text, perhaps we might ask what the early church did. We see from Acts that there were different views on this.

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