Deus Ex

I am not so sure that Paul thinks of Jesus as God. For that matter I don't think the authors of the Synoptic Gospels consider Jesus to be one and the same as Yahweh. Even the Fourth Gospel has Jesus saying that the Father is greater than he. You are reading your trinitarian views back into the texts. The texts do claim that Jesus did some neat tricks, tho. Why should anyone believe these tales?

Do you believe any supernatural tales that come from sources other than the bible?


Even if there is a god it does not mean that the bible is a revelation from that deity. I see no evidence that the bible is anything other than the writings of men telling fantastical tales.

Do you believe everything in the bible without the slightest reservation? If so, why?

avi

Thank you for your comments. I am a little surprised by this quote, above.

If we could step back, for just a moment, and examine some comparable religious text, for example, the Quran, would we not find, as with the "bible", some assurance that there is an omnipotent, supernatural God, who has created us? In fact, could we not generalize, for all religions, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and so on....that these ideologies represent man's attempt to explain and regulate various aspects of nature and society, by means of supernatural entities? Are we obliged to "prove", for each of the many religions, that there are no Gods, save those created by man's own efforts?

Writing only for myself, and no one else on the forum, I can assure you that my motivation to study the Bible has nothing whatsoever to do with any so called "God", and everything to do with terrorism--the horrific destruction caused by "true believers" of the wretched "bible", men who massacred entire indigenous populations (North America), in the name of "christianity", or "catholicism". I seek to understand how these morons think. I have no need to invoke any supernatural force, to engage in that assessment process.

My ancestors, good, bible loving Christians all of them, used to shoot the "red man", i.e. the indigenous peoples of North America, for "sport", the way Teddy Roosevelt shot big game animals. These were not people, my ancestors butchered. They were "eqnikoi". How does your beloved "bible" translate that lovely Greek word, rhutchin?

Gentile? Gook? Heathen? Barbarian? Untermensch? Savage? Animal? Ungodly? Pagan?

No, my requirement to explain and understand the actions and behaviour of the "black robes", has nothing to do with proving or disproving the existence or absence of any deity. I need "to deal with the Bible and what it says", because of the savagery committed against folks of different racial composition, by my fellow Caucasian brethren,who employed the Bible to justify their rapacious
lust for land, wealth, and power.

Indeed, when we study what it says, the Bible reveals the absence of rationality, as a force to guide society. I have no idea, in that environment, how one can decipher or discriminate, an authentic aphorism coined by the author who created JC himself, from utter malarky.

avi

storytime

Ok, then actually deal with the bible. Accountability requires protocol. Something I don't think you've considered in dealing with the Bible and what it says.

To those who don't believe, there is no Hebrew god to whom they would be accountable. You, on the other hand, have chosen to adopt-a-god, a Hebrew god that clearly states He is no god to you. You, however, discount His rejection in favor of Paul's gospel, telling yourself that you are saved. And, you do this at your own peril, simply because you refuse to read the story in full that explains why the Hebrew god is not on your side. You are not now, nor can ever be, one of his children. He has set the protocol, not you. Therefore, His command is that you should die by the hands of his legitimate children, without pity and sparing not your life.

Why did you not choose to adopt a non-Hebrew god? Is it because you've never had the opportunity to read about other gods and the people who worship them? You've only been exposed to one god out of many. Are you confident that the Hebrew god is the right god for you? That He has accepted you? Remember the protocol. Are you a son of Jacob? To which tribal name is your ancestry? And, can you prove it?

aa5874

It is not really a matter of believing, it is just describing Jesus exactly as is found in the NT or Church writings. One does not have believe Matthew 1.18 to understand how Jesus is described.

Equally I do not have to believe that Mermaids or Unicorns exist to tell exactly how mermaids or unicorns are described.

The NT and Church writers claimed Jesus lived in Nazareth, if it is not true, no-one can tell where he lived if he did exist.

However Jesus of Nazareth is the same Jesus of Paul since the Pauline writings are all part of the sacred canonical scripture about Jesus who was raised from the dead.

Now, even if you do not believe the NT is true, what other source tells you of the activities of Jesus or even the name of the mother of Jesus or that he would resurrect on the third day?

It is the multiple-attested supernatural characteristics and events about Jesus that help to determine that we are dealing with belief and not history.

avi

good point. How do we prove our ancestry? In the old days, one could simply demand that males drop their trousers, and those who were circumcised passed or failed, depending on whose hand was on the weapon's trigger.

Then there are names, oops, many come from the old testament, so, is "Daniel Thomas Stone" Jewish?

These days, DNA is much beloved for asserting ancestry claims. Since 99% of my own DNA matches that of Pan troglodytes, I feel comfortable claiming kinship with that family.

avi

spamandham

They may be consistent, but that doesn't make them credible. Afterall, the miraculous is commonplace in ancient texts from all over the world.

Such claims continue today as well, and not just within Christianity.

Roger Pearse

Go into politics. Then your enemies will do it for you.

Simples!

show_no_mercy

Well a person can become Jewish by becoming circumcized and following the 613 commandments. Paul actually hates all of the hard work this entitled and simply declared that apostasy was acceptable to inherit Abraham's promise just because of "faith".

Notice that in the Hebrew bible there's nothing about YHWH promising his chosen people that each individual could live forever. He only promises prosperity to the "people" as a whole. Anyone who was circumcized and follow the Law was part of this covenant. Paul's invention was thinking that each individual would live forever if they had the faith of Abraham.

rhutchin

Yes, consistent, also. However, credible is not that strong a term. It does not mean, though it can suggest, that something is true. If the miraculous is commonplace in ancient texts, then perhaps the miraculous did occur or appeared to occur. A non-miraculous explanation might exist for whatever event occurred. Credibility can reflect the reputation of the person providing the account and agreement with whatever else is happening.

rhutchin

Considering that Paul seemed always to refer to Christ as Lord, and told people to obey Christ as one obeys God, I think it would be impossible to show that Paul did not see Christ being God. So, what is your basic argument for thinking that Paul did not think of Christ as God?

Tricks, so to speak, that only God could do. The tales are credible being provided to us by people who believed them and claimed to be eyewitnesses to them.

No, but I am not aware that many others do either. Certainly, many people believe what the Bible says even if they cannot explain everything they read.

OK.

OK. Maybe the evidence is there and you are just blind to it.

Yep. I see no reason not to do so. The alleged authors and sources of that which is in the Bible makes it credible even if difficult to prove in any systematic scientific manner.