Freethought & Rationalism Archive

James Brown · 11-28-2012, 06:46 AM

I like the part where the soldiers go to break Jesus' legs to make him die faster.

But they don't bother, because Jesus is already dead.

So they stab him, to make him die faster.

Juststeve · 11-28-2012, 06:55 AM

For Stephen Huller:

Do we really know what the range of times that people were on the cross before dying? Is there a record shortest and longest? Where would we even find such information?

If we don't know the range we can't make much of the fact that Jesus lingered for a short period, if that is a fact.

Steve

Chili · 11-28-2012, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Brown

I like the part where the soldiers go to break Jesus' legs to make him die faster.

But they don't bother, because Jesus is already dead.

So they stab him, to make him die faster.

They use to feed self proclaimed Christians to the storks and broke only their bones to help them die sooner. Kind of like trying to do them a favor, and maybe the 'breaking bones' thing makes reference to that, and that makes winter a good time for this when storks migrated there maybe.

Clivedurdle · 11-28-2012, 07:49 AM

Shesh, publish and be damned please! I would love to see another possible framework behind these documents, and if the worst comes of it you will be wealthier than Bible codes bloke!

aa5874 · 11-28-2012, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

According to the Gospel accounts Jesus was flogged shortly before his crucifixion. This would have reduced his life expectancy.

(If you take the Simon of Cyrene episode as history then it probably implies that Jesus was physically in a seriously weakened condition before he got to Golgotha.)

Andrew Criddle

There are other claims in the Gospels that reduced the "Life Expectancy" of Jesus to ZERO.

If you take the conception of Jesus as history [ it is multiple attested] then then story of the crucifixion is in a "weakened condition".

We can't be going over the same thing over and over.

Once we read the Gospels it is clear we are NOT dealing with actual historical accounts.

According to gJohn, the Logos, God the Creator called Jesus CARRIED his cross to the place where he was crucified.

Jesus the Logos and Creator God was in "perfect health" Before he was Sacrificied for Remission of Sins.

John 19

Quote:

And they took Jesus, and led him away . 17And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:18Where they crucified him...

Now, Jesus, the Logos and Creator God will BOAST about his ability to LAY down his Life and TAKE it up again.

In effect, Jesus the Logos and Creator God, had power or control over when he LAID down his life.

John 10:17-18 KJV

Quote:

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down , and I have power to take it again.
This commandment have I received of my Father.

The crucixion and death of Jesus the Logos and Creator God is NOT history.

Clivedurdle · 11-28-2012, 08:42 AM

Quote:

King James Bible - Leviticus 22:21
And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

or lambs of god...

But was it with mint sauce?

James Brown · 11-28-2012, 08:45 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#Cause_of_death

Quote:

Cause of death

The length of time required to reach death could range from hours to days depending on method, the victim's health, and the environment. Death could result from any combination of causes, including blood loss resulting in hypovolemic shock, sepsis following infection due to the wounds caused by the nails or by the scourging that sometimes preceded the crucifixion, or eventual dehydration.[38][39]

A theory attributed to Pierre Barbet holds that, when the whole body weight was supported by the stretched arms, the typical cause of death was asphyxiation.[40] He conjectured that the condemned would have severe difficulty inhaling, due to hyper-expansion of the chest muscles and lungs. The condemned would therefore have to draw himself up by his arms, leading to exhaustion, or have his feet supported by tying or by a wood block. When no longer able to lift himself, the condemned would die within a few minutes. Experiments by Frederick Zugibe have, however, revealed that, when suspended with arms at 60° to 70° from the vertical, test subjects had no difficulty breathing. Subjects did suffer rapidly increasing pain,[41][42] which is consistent with the Roman use of crucifixion to achieve a prolonged, agonizing death. Legs were often broken to hasten death through severe traumatic shock and fat embolism.

Survival

Since death does not follow immediately on crucifixion, survival after a short period of crucifixion is possible, as in the case of those who choose each year as a devotional practice to be non-lethally crucified.

There is an ancient record of one person who survived a crucifixion that was intended to be lethal, but that was interrupted. Josephus recounts: "I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered."[43] Josephus gives no details of the method or duration of the crucifixion of his three friends before their reprieve.

Clivedurdle · 11-28-2012, 08:49 AM

The historical Jesus is somehow assumed to have been transmogrified into the Son of God who taketh away the sins of the world.

But this does not make sense. The process of theologising an hj was starting with very poor material - someone who was obviously blemished and therefore immediately not the sacrifice for all.

sotto voce · 11-28-2012, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

The historical Jesus is somehow assumed to have been transmogrified into the Son of God who taketh away the sins of the world.

But this does not make sense. The process of theologising an hj was starting with very poor material - someone who was obviously blemished and therefore immediately not the sacrifice for all.

Can't be that obvious if people say 'taketh'.

stephan huller · 11-28-2012, 11:05 AM

Back to the original thread. Clement also acknowledges the sixth hour mysticism (because he was a 'secret' Marcosians):

Quote:

Clement of Alexandria writes "wherefore also man is said to have been made on the sixth day, who became faithful to Him who is the sign (episemon), so as straightway to receive the rest of the Lord's inheritance. Some such thing also is indicated by the sixth hour in the scheme of salvation, in which man was perfected." [Stromata vi.16]

compare Irenaeus says that the Marcosians take great interest in the sixth letter

Quote:

and for this reason (he maintains) that Moses says that man was created on the sixth day. And (he asserts) that the dispensation of suffering (took place) on the sixth day, which is the preparation; (and so it was) that on this (day) appeared the last man for the regeneration of the first man. And that the beginning and end of this dispensation is the sixth hour, at which He was nailed to the (accursed) tree." [Philosoph v:42]

Clement also speaks of three abodes in heaven. These three abodes are linked with the numbers thirty, sixty and one hundred. Another passage may be connected with the preceding; in Str. vi 107,2, Clement relates the ranks in heaven with the dignities of the church below - “the advancements (προκοπαί) pertaining to the Church here below, namely those of bishops, presbyters and deacons, are imitations (μιμήματα) of the angelic glory.” The link between the number three and the abodes is also apparent in Str. vii 40,4, in which Clement speaks about the union of the Gnostic and God through prayer. He says that those who are experienced in the threefold hours for prayer (the third, sixth and ninth hour), also know about the three abodes.

The question then is whether the three, sixth and ninth hours of prayer are understood by Clement to relate to the third, sixth and ninth hours of the crucifixion? If they are then Clement has the same formula as Origen (i.e. sixth = crucifixion, ninth = death). Does that make the entire schema 'Marcosian' and derived from the Marcosian gospel? What = the third hour? The trial?

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11-28-2012, 06:46 AM	#21
James Brown Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Texas, U.S. Posts: 5,844	I like the part where the soldiers go to break Jesus' legs to make him die faster. But they don't bother, because Jesus is already dead. So they stab him, to make him die faster.

11-28-2012, 06:55 AM	#22
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	For Stephen Huller: Do we really know what the range of times that people were on the cross before dying? Is there a record shortest and longest? Where would we even find such information? If we don't know the range we can't make much of the fact that Jesus lingered for a short period, if that is a fact. Steve

11-28-2012, 07:49 AM	#24
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Shesh, publish and be damned please! I would love to see another possible framework behind these documents, and if the worst comes of it you will be wealthier than Bible codes bloke!

11-28-2012, 08:49 AM	#28
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The historical Jesus is somehow assumed to have been transmogrified into the Son of God who taketh away the sins of the world. But this does not make sense. The process of theologising an hj was starting with very poor material - someone who was obviously blemished and therefore immediately not the sacrifice for all.

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