Aspirin99

Thanks, spin. That's helpful. I'll study this further as time permits.

judge

Asprin you might be interested to know that Aramaic speakers who translate these portions tend to say that Jesus was not quoting psalm 22.

It appears the greek translator just assumed psalm 22 was being quoted.

The confusion most probably arises because of the two different dialects of aramaic in mark.
The greek translator leaves the Aramaic in and gives a translation, but mistakenly thinks psalm 22 is being quoted.



You may find this link helpful

My God My God why has thou forsaken me

spin

The page merely fights the inevitable relationship with Ps 22, complaining that the consulted Syriac dictionary has more entries for another meaning of the verb ($bq) than for the one relating it to Ps 22. The verb in question $bq is used in those few bits of Aramaic in the Hebrew bible, Dan 2:44, 4:23, and Ezr 6:7, where it means "leave/leave alone/(don't touch)".

The writer of the page looks up the use of $bq in the nt and goes with the English translation apparently mainly of the Greek to conclude that it mainly means other than "leave/leave alone/abandon", yet if one turns to the Peshitta instances...

Mt 4:11, the Devil abandoned ($bqh) him
Mt 4:20, they left (ie abandoned $bqw) their nets (=Mk 1:18)
Mt 4:22, they left their ship... (Mk 1:20 left Zebedee...)
Mt 6:12, leave our debts as we leave our debtors (literally!) -> "forgive" our debtors...
Mt 18:12, will he not leave the ninety-nine...
Mt 19:27, we have forsaken everything... (=Mk 10:28)
Mt 22:25, he left his wife to his brother (=Mk 11:19)
Mt 26:56, then his disciples all forsook him
Mk 1:31, the fever left her
Mk 7:8, you have forsaken the commandment
and so on...

It should be clear that the verb fundamentally indicates "leave" and various connotations of that idea, "leave someone to (do something)", but often "leave alone/abandon".

So, when we come to Mk 15:34, the obvious starting place is the fundamental meaning of the verb $bq, and the Peshitta phrase would read, "god, god, why have you left me?", and the meaning is clear along with its relationship with Ps 22.

You need, judge, to go back to my earlier posts on the relationship between the Greek and the Syriac regarding the utterance (in both Mk & Mt) and deal with the evidence which points out that the Greek has features unaccounted for if it were derived from Aramaic.

If only, judge, you could do your own work and not become a pawn to other people's tendentious work.


spin

[Note that the page is correct in its prsentation of the Greek and that I relied too much with just the Textus Receptus which meant that I didn't question 1) the first vowel in lama or the double mm in Mk.]

yalla

judge
Gidday,
Could you help me out on my questions please - see # 17 above?
I still have problems trying to work out the logistics of your possible scenario.
Thanks.

judge

What if someone who was present told the author of the confusion?

What if Jesus cried out, and some who were present mentioned that they thought he cried for elijah. So they begin to ask..."what did he say"...and those present discuss what has been said.

I am not saying that this is what happened but it is a possible answer.

judge

You know this for a fact?

Ahhh...but this is only suggested?

Where is your sure-footedness gone? :rolling:

spin

I could tart up the expression for you if you like.

Haven't you got anything better to do than to bitch about my phrasing, such as learn something about the language you are unable to talk about?


spin :wave:

spin

Why tempt Ockham's Razor so flagrantly?


spin

judge

Might be something unconscious about it all. Might be worth a look eh?

Or is it that you can dish it out but you can't take it?

spin

I just notice, judge, that in all your recent posts you've avoided any pretence of talking about Aramaic priority. Best that way, isn't it? You don't have to learn anything.


spin :wave: