Johnny Skeptic

What evidences? Please quote book, chapter and verse.

Who says that he gives tangible things at all today? If God does not exist, then it is to be expected that the only available blessings would be spritual, otherwise stated emotional. All other religions that claim tangible benefits from their Gods are in the very same boat.

My position is that there isn't any evidence at all that Jesus performed any miracles at any time.

The odds are far greater that very unusual things WILL sometimes occur than they are that they WILL NEVER occur. In fact, the very best example that I can think of of a miracle would be if very unusual things NEVER occurred. The only possible way that such a scenario could possibly occur would be if a powerful being prevented very unusual things from occurring.

Would a loving God cure a man of cancer and then choose to allow the very same man to have a serious traffic accident that would prevent him from ever being able to walk, work, or ever enjoy playing with his children again? Of course not, but things like that frequently happen.

Jemand, your arguments fail mainly because the texts says that even Jesus' enemies acknowledged that he had supernatural powers, but that his powers came from Beelzebub. Jesus made sure that both sides knew that he had supernatural powers. He didn't ask people to believe his soley based upon faith. Today, the enemies of Christianity DO NOT acknowledge the existance of supernatural powers. In other words, the texts say that it was noticeable to Jesus' friends AND enemies that he had supernatural powers. We deserve to have noticeable evidence of God's supernatural power today as much or more than people did back then.

Very unusual things sometimes happen to animals. How do you account for those very unusual things?

Logically, there is no automatic correlation that can be made between the ability to rise from the dead, the ability to predict the future, and goodness.

In the NIV, John 10:37-38 say "Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." The verses cite “tangible� evidence of Jesus’ power.

More “tangible� evidence comes from Acts 14:3 and Matthew 14:14. Acts 14:3 says "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders.� Matthew 14:14 says "When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick."

We need compassion in tangible ways today just as much as people did back then. Where is tangible evidence of God's power and compassion in tangible ways today? An unusual healing can happen to anyone, not just to Christians. In the world today, there is every indication that tangible good things and bad things are not distributed equitably, and that they are distributed according to the laws of physics, not by divine intervention. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that 1) God used to be compassionate in noticeably tangible ways but is not interested in being compassionate in noticeably tangible ways today, or that 2) he never was compassionate in noticeably tangible ways, or that 3) he does not exist.

It is a fact that there is much more need today of tangible confirmations of “the message of his grace� that can be reasonably attributed to God than there was in the 1st century with a supposed veritable plethora of eyewitnesses being available to offer first hand accounts of miracles, including the resurrection of Jesus. Today, in court trials, it is often difficult to reliably establish what happened just weeks before, even sometimes with the testimonies of supposed eyewitnesses, let alone reliably establish what happened thousands of years ago based up second and third hand testimonies.

The question needs to be asked, "Would Jesus appearing to 10,000 people with disparate world views instead of appearing to 500 of “the brethren,� reference 1 Corinthians 15:6, have helped the spread of Christianity, hindered the spread of Christianity, or not made any difference at all? Obviously, the first choice is the best answer. If Christianity is true, if choice number one had actually been the case, a lot more people would end up in heaven and a lot less people would end up in hell.

Johnny Skeptic

I would appreciate it if some Christians would give their opinions regarding my opening post.

jemand

Well, I think you and I both agree that it's really dificult to prove what did or did not happen 2,000 years ago. You've quoted many verses that to me sound like they support the idea Jesus handed out tangible benifits.

As for today, like I said before, I think a lot of things are "tangible benifits" that you regard as just normal, par for the course so to speak. Such things would be, the fact that I can think to respond to your post, the ability to see, hear, taste, etc. The fact that I have enough to eat. I honestly believe God has been working in my life. Like I said before though, if I didn't believe God existed I could see everything I see now just exactly as it is now, and see absolutely no evidence of God's existence. You have to believe to see it, in my opinion.

Lazarus Nichodemus

Johnny, what "Christians"? All christians? Some Christians?...

"Atheists just want to abolish moral rules and have anarchy ensue." Not an accurate statement of Atheists

My favorite statements about a culture always start with an absolute that lumps the whole culture together. Maybe you haven't noticed but not all christians are carbon-copies of one another. Perfect example; I don't want Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Benny Hinn or any other over the top radical being the face of Christianity for me.

To the rest of your statement. Just for clarifiction "Christians would follow Barney the purple dinosaur if he were promising eternal security" I'm assuming that is the thesis of your argument.

Just as we discussed previously that is a statement based on opinion and conjecture. Your factual information comes from what source?

My life up to date as not been exactly comfortable, but even if I continued to exist in my present state (ups and downs, health issues, loved ones dying etc...) for eternity I would be content. Now maybe eternal life is what I'm after whether it's comfortable or not. But after close evaluation of my life, if I were to live it over again and follow God's principles for living; my life would still be better than what it has currently been. John 10:10 "The thief comes to kill and destroy. I come to give you life and that you may have it to the full". See your argument might hold up if eternal comfort is all that God promised but he promised so much more. The New Testament is littered with verses that proclaim the joy of living for God. While atheists chew up the bible looking for discrepancies and contradictions, they miss the point. It is about so much more than just eternal security. Unfortunately many Christians do as well. That's why Robertson, Falwell, and Hinn are way they are today.

Missing the forest for the trees.

Sincerely
L.N.

Lazarus Nichodemus

The evidence that he is bad? Tsunami's, Hurricanes, Loved ones dying.

From an individual perspective those things are horrible, but that assumes that individual lives would have been better had they not happened.

Someone dies in a car crash, but is an organ donor. Your beloved Uncle needs a Heart transplant; because of the victim he lives. Certainly from an individual perspective someone wins and someone loses. But the question is does God operate the world like a cosmic game of Craps? Or is there a bigger picture that we can not see?

Sincerely,
L.N.

Johnny Skeptic

Which tangible benefits were those? Regarding miracle healings, today, millions of Christians disagree as to what constitutes a miracle healing. There are not any good reasons at all for anyone to assume that it was any different back then. Regarding the feeding of the 5,000, the texts do not make any mention that anyone other than Jesus saw the miracles. None of the anonymous Gospel writers claimed to have seen the miracles. We know that the claims were made at least second hand, and it is entirely possible that they were made third hand or fourth hand. The first mention of the feeding of the the 5,000 in print appeared in the book of Mark. It was written about 70 A.D., but no one knows when it was first released. When it was released, it is entirely possible that the claim was widely rejected.

It is quite important to note that the texts say that the Pharisees acknowledged that Jesus had supernatural powers, but that his powers came from Beelzebub. In other words, both sides had ample evidence that Jesus had supernatural powers. Today, both sides "do not" have ample evidencve that God has supernatural powers, and that only he possesses supernatural powers.

That is not evidence. Some people cannot respond to my post, see, or hear. In addition, decades ago I read that 10,000 people in the world died of hunger every day, and that half of the people in the world went to bed hungry every day. What about hurricane Katrina and the recent tsunami in Asia? What about the Bubonic Plague? Exodus 4:11 says "And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?" No loving God would do such things to people.

Today, there is every indication that good things and bad things are not distributed equitably to those in greatest need, and that they are distributed according the laws of physics. Regarding Hurricane Katrina, rich people were much better able to escape the consequences of the hurricane than poor people were. Many poor people did not have enough money to travel elsewhere, but rich people simply left town. Rich people can easily repair or rebuild their homes, or move to an area where hurricanes are less frequent. Rich people also have much better educational opportunites, and they have access to much better medical care. In short, God favors the rich, and he has turned his back on the people who are poor.

In what tangible ways? Spiritual and emotional experiences are subjective, and the followers of many religions claim beneficial spiritual and emotional experiences.

What is your belief based upon?

Johnny Skeptic

Message to Lazarus Nicodemus: Following is my entire mini-essay from my web site at www.johnnyskeptic.com, except for the conclusion of my mini-essay, which is not necessary for me to post. I suggest that we take each chapter one at a time. Of course, anyone else is welcome to join in.

1. Is God good?

Even if I believed that Jesus rose from the dead, I would not become a Christian unless God first answered a lot of questions to my satisfaction. For instance, I would like for him to explain some of his questionable actions and allowances in the Old Testament, some of his questionable allowances in the world today, such as allowing tsunamis, hunger and plagues, why he gives humans such a brief amount of time to accept him, why he doesn't provide more proof of his existence, and why Jesus hasn't returned to earth.

Regarding hurricane Katrina, as usual, God favors the rich. The people who are best able to deal with Hurricane Katrina are people who are well off financially. People who could afford to travel simply left the area. Poor people who lost their homes or had their homes damaged are much worse off than people who have adequate financial resources to pay for the damage or rebuild their homes. The same argument also applies to people who are able to afford adequate medical treatment, college educations and a host of other advantages that are available to people who are well off financially. Is there really a loving, compassionate, protective God out there? It doesn't look like it.

Logically, there is no automatic correlation that can be made between the ability to rise from the dead, the ability to predict the future, and goodness.

In the NIV, John 10:37-38 say "Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." The verses cite "tangible" evidence of Jesus' power.

More "tangible" evidence comes from Acts 14:3 and Matthew 14:14. Acts 14:3 says "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders." Matthew 14:14 says "When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick."

We need compassion in tangible ways today just as much as people did back then. Where is tangible evidence of God's power and compassion in tangible ways today? An unusual healing can happen to anyone, not just to Christians. In the world today, there is every indication that tangible good things and bad things are not distributed equitably, and that they are distributed according to the laws of physics, not by divine intervention. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that 1) God used to be compassionate in noticeably tangible ways but is not interested in being compassionate in noticeably tangible ways today, or that 2) he never was compassionate in noticeably tangible ways, or that 3) he does not exist.

When confronted with difficulties like the ones that I mentioned, Christians frequently refer to Isaiah 55:8. The verse says "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord." The problem for Christians here is that in order for the verse to make any sense, Isaiah would had to have known what God thoughts and ways are in order to know that they are different from our own, which of course he didn't. If I had been alive back then, I would have asked Isaiah "How do you know that?" His response might have been "God told me so."

We have only the Bible writers' word for it that God is good. That simply will not do. Hearsay testimony is by no means the best evidence in court trials. How much more so should we not trust human proxies claiming to speak for God? If God's thoughts and ways are actually different from our thoughts and ways, even if he does not want to discuss his thoughts and ways at this time, at the very least he needs to tell us that himself in person so as to discourage dissent rather than to encourage dissent.

Regarding God's questionable actions, one need look no further than the following examples:

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Regarding God's allowances, how about the Bubonic Plague and the recent tsunami in Asia? Did the plague and the tsunami benefit anyone in any way? Of course not. Did the plague and the tsunami benefit God is any way? Of course not. Should God offer us more protection that he does? Of course he should? Would any loving human father protect his children from plagues and tsunamis? Of course he would.

It seems to me that Christians must claim that whatever God does defines what is good as it applies to his conduct, even when his conduct is contrary to current legal standards and standards of social decency.

2. Miracles.

It is important to note that the texts say that "both sides" were aware that Jesus had supernatural powers. Matthew 12:24 says "But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, 'It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.'" Today, both sides "are not" aware of God's supernatural power. Therefore, we don't have nearly the "evidence" today that people with "varying" world views supposedly had back then.

Regarding miracle healings, today, millions of Christians disagree as to what constitutes a miracle healing. There are not any good reasons at all for anyone to believe that it was any different back then.

Regarding the feeding of the 5,000, which is mentioned in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Christians have some problems. Consider the following:

1 - The texts claim that the disciples were aware of the miracle, but no mention is made that the crowd was aware of the miracle.

2 - The anonymous Gospel writers did not claim that they personally witnessed the miracle.

3 - The Gospel writers did not reveal their source(s), which might very well have been third hand or fourth hand.

4 - There is no evidence when the claim was first made.

5 - There is no evidence that the claim was widely accepted.

Some Christians claim that skeptics are predisposed against miracles, but I don't know of any skeptic who would object to anyone, a claimed God or an alien, being available to help us with our many burdens

3. Where is God today?

Acts 14:3 says "Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands." In order to make my point more clear, the New International Version translates the verse as "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders."

It is a fact that there is much more need today of tangible confirmations of "the message of his grace" that can be reasonably attributed to God than there was in the 1st century with a supposed veritable plethora of eyewitnesses being available to offer first hand accounts of miracles, including the resurrection of Jesus.

Regarding the claims of 1) the feeding of the 5,000, 2) the feeding of the 4,000, 3) the numerous healings performed by Jesus, 4) the 3,000 people who became Christians after hearing teachings by Peter, 4) Matthew 4:24, which says "And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them," 5) 1st Corinthians 15:6, which says "After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep," and 6) the coming of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4, if the claims were true there would have been no need for confirming "the message of his grace" with tangible signs and wonders.

4. Is the spread of the Gospel message really necessary?

During most of the past 2,000 years, the Gospel message has been spread by foot, horse, mule and boat, or in other words spread by humans at a pace that makes a Galapagos tortoise seem like a race horse by comparison. Over a number of centuries, hundreds of millions of people have died without ever having heard the Gospel message. Such being the case, why was it necessary for anyone at all to hear the Gospel message? I am well aware that in response many Christians will run right back to Isaiah 55:8, in which case I will remind them of my previous comments "The problem for Christians here is that in order for the verse to make any sense, Isaiah would had to have known what God thoughts and ways are in order to know that they are different from our own, which of course he didn't. We have only the Bible writers' word for it that God is good. That simply will not do. Hearsay testimony is by no means the best evidence in court trials. How much more so should we not trust human proxies claiming to speak for God? If God's thoughts and ways are actually different from our thoughts and ways, even if he does not want to discuss his thoughts and ways at this time, at the very least he needs to tell us that himself in person so as to discourage dissent rather than to encourage dissent."

5. The major factors that account for religious beliefs.

Historically, the vast majority of humans have always had a penchant for dreaming up all sorts of religions in order to satisfy their desire for a comfortable eternal life. This desire has caused many people to defend religions that are much more unbelievable than Christianity is, clearly testifying to the human desire of obtaining eternal comfort.

No disrespect intended, but Christians are just like trained seals looking for a reward of fish from their trainers. Seals in the wild with abundant food supplies would never be interested in performing tricks for humans. If humans were able to provide for themselves a comfortable life at this time that indicated to them that it would be eternally comfortable, I am quite certain that only a relative handful of people would be interested in religion.

Although Christians vigorously defend the claim that Jesus rose from the dead, the claim is definitely incidental to their desire of obtaining a comfortable eternal life. Eternal comfort is the desired goal, not so much how it is obtained. Any of a number of means of obtaining it would be deemed equally acceptable.

Truly, as far as Christians and other religious minded people are concerned, all roads lead to eternal comfort, and if an extra-terrestrial being one day provides eternal comfort for some people, to them his identity would be of no importance whatsoever.

Barry A. Kosmin and Seymour P. Lachman wrote a book titled 'One Nation Under God.' Billy Graham said "'One Nation Under God' is quite possibly the most comprehensive and thoughtful profile of contemporary American religious life in print."

The authors cite a substantial amount of documented research that shows that geography, family, race, ethnicity, gender and age are major factors that accounts for religious beliefs.

Consider the following from page 210:

"A Gallup Poll that inquired into one key measurement - how important a role people say religion plays in their own lives - showed that women (66%) are far more likely than men (48%) to attach great importance to religion, and that men (18%) are more than twice as likely as women (8%) to say that it is not very important to them. Age differences are also significant. Less than half of those under age 30 (46%) say that religion is very important to them, whereas among those who are 50 and older, 70% consider religion of great importance in their lives."

Kosmin and Lachman's research does not indicate supernatural factors at work, but rather the natural factors of geography, family, race ethnicity, gender and age, the very same factors that account for the spread of all other religions.

6. Skeptics "are not" opposed to being told what to do within certain parameters.

The vast majority of skeptics favor oversight from humans. They know that without human oversight, there would be anarchy in society. As far as oversight from God is concerned, skeptics would deem that to be acceptable as well depending upon what that oversight entailed. Regarding the Old Testament, skeptics quite rightly consider it to be unacceptable that people were put to death for working on the Sabbath Day or for cursing their parents. Regarding the New Testament, skeptics quite rightly consider Revelation 14:9-11 to be unacceptable. The verses read "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Eternal vengeance, and the holy angels and the Lamb (Jesus) watching people suffer, can only mean one of two things, either that a hateful human religious bigot dreamed up the texts, or that the God of the Bible is the mostly utterly detestable being in the entire universe as compared with current human standards of decency, morality, love and forgiveness.

Johnny Skeptic

Following is my revision of my opening post:

All Scriptures are from the King James Version of the Bible unless otherwise noted.


1. Is God good?

Even if I believed that Jesus rose from the dead, I would not become a Christian unless God first answered a lot of questions to my satisfaction. For instance, I would like for him to explain some of his questionable actions and allowances in the Old Testament, some of his questionable allowances in the world today, such as allowing tsunamis, hunger and plagues, why he gives humans such a brief amount of time to accept him, why he doesn't provide more proof of his existence, and why Jesus hasn't returned to earth.

Regarding God's questionable actions in the Old Testament, god told Moses:

Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Leviticus 20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

Exodus 4:11 And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?

Regarding God’s questionable allowances in the world today, what about hurricane Katrina? As usual, God favors the rich. The people who are best able to deal with Hurricane Katrina are people who are well off financially. People who could afford to travel simply left the area. Poor people who lost their homes or had their homes damaged are much worse off than people who have adequate financial resources to pay for the damage or rebuild their homes. The same argument also applies to people who are able to afford adequate medical treatment, college educations and a host of other advantages that are available to people who are well off financially. Is there really a loving, compassionate, protective God out there? It doesn't look like it.

Logically, there is no automatic correlation that can be made between the ability to rise from the dead, the ability to predict the future, and goodness.

In the New International Version of the Bible, John 10:37-38 say "Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." The verses cite "tangible" evidence of Jesus' power.

More "tangible" evidence comes from Acts 14:3 and Matthew 14:14. In the NIV, Acts 14:3 says "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders." In the NIV, Matthew 14:14 says "When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick."

We need compassion in tangible ways today just as much as people did back then. Where is tangible evidence of God's power and compassion in tangible ways today? An unusual healing can happen to anyone, not just to Christians. In the world today, there is every indication that tangible good things and bad things are not distributed equitably to those in greatest need, and that they are distributed according to the laws of physics, not by divine intervention. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that 1) God used to be compassionate in noticeably tangible ways but is not interested in being compassionate in noticeably tangible ways today, or that 2) he never was compassionate in noticeably tangible ways, or that 3) he does not exist.

When confronted with difficulties like the ones that I mentioned, Christians frequently refer to Isaiah 55:8. The verse says "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord." The problem for Christians here is that in order for the verse to make any sense, Isaiah would had to have known what God’s thoughts and ways are in order to know that they are different from our own, which of course he didn't. If I had been alive back then, I would have asked Isaiah "How do you know that?" His response might have been "God told me so."

Christians often claim that skeptics don’t want God telling them what to do, but skeptics "are not" opposed to being told what to do within certain parameters. First of all, the vast majority of skeptics favor oversight from humans. They know that without human oversight, there would be anarchy in society. Second of all, the vast majority of skeptics would approve of oversight from God if they deemed such oversight to be fair. Regarding Revelation 14:9-11, skeptics quite rightly deem such oversight to be unacceptable. The verses read "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Eternal vengeance, and the holy angels and the Lamb (Jesus) watching people suffer, can only mean one of two things, either that a hateful human religious bigot dreamed up the texts, or that the God of the Bible is the most utterly detestable being in the entire universe as compared with current human standards of decency, morality, love and forgiveness.

God’s reluctance to show himself clearly beyond any doubt serves only to encourage dissent, rather than the much better option of discouraging dissent.

2. Miracles.

It is important to note that the texts say that "both sides" were aware that Jesus had supernatural powers. Matthew 12:24 says "But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, 'It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.'" Today, both sides "are not" aware of God's supernatural power. Therefore, we don't have nearly the "evidence" today that people with "varying" world views supposedly had back then.

Regarding miracle healings, today, millions of Christians disagree as to what constitutes a miracle healing. There are not any good reasons at all for anyone to believe that it was any different back then.

Regarding the feeding of the 5,000, which is mentioned in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, Christians have some problems. Consider the following:

1 - The texts claim that the disciples were aware of the miracle, but no mention is made that the crowd was aware of the miracle.

2 - The anonymous Gospel writers did not claim that they personally witnessed the miracle.

3 - The Gospel writers did not reveal their source(s), which might very well have been third hand or fourth hand.

4 - There is no evidence when the claim was first made.

5 - There is no evidence that the claim was widely accepted.

Some Christians claim that skeptics are predisposed against miracles, but I don't know of any skeptic who would object to anyone, a claimed God or an alien, being available to help us with our many burdens

3. Where is God today?


Acts 14:3 says "Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands." In order to make my point more clear, the New International Version translates the verse as "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders."

It is a fact that there is much more need today of tangible confirmations of "the message of his grace" that can be reasonably attributed to God than there was in the 1st century with a supposed veritable plethora of eyewitnesses being available to offer first hand accounts of miracles, including the resurrection of Jesus.

Regarding the claims of 1) the feeding of the 5,000, 2) the feeding of the 4,000, 3) the numerous healings performed by Jesus, 4) the 3,000 people who became Christians after hearing teachings by Peter, 4) Matthew 4:24, which says "And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them," 5) 1st Corinthians 15:6, which says "After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep," and 6) the coming of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4, if the claims were true there would have been no need for confirming "the message of his grace" with tangible signs and wonders.

4. Is the spread of the Gospel message really necessary?

During most of the past 2,000 years, the Gospel message has been spread by foot, horse, mule and boat, or in other words spread by humans at a pace that makes a Galapagos tortoise seem like a race horse by comparison. Over a number of centuries, hundreds of millions of people have died without ever having heard the Gospel message. Such being the case, why was it necessary for anyone at all to hear the Gospel message?

5. Conclusion.

Considering both the nature of the world we experience and the nature of the God depicted in the Bible, rational humans should reject the claim th Bible is the divinely inspired word of a perfect, good, loving deity. Likewise, rational humans should reject the fundamental claims of Christianity as unsupported by reason and evidence.

Johnny Skeptic

Not in opinion of the New Testament. In the NIV, John 10:37-38 say "Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." The verses cite "tangible" evidence of Jesus' power.

Even "after" Jesus died, and even "after" the Holy Spirit had come to the Chruch, "Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders," reference Acts 14:3.

We need compassion in tangible ways today just as much as people did back then. Where is tangible evidence of God's power and compassion in tangible ways today? An unusual healing can happen to anyone, not just to Christians. In the world today, there is every indication that tangible good things and bad things are not distributed equitably to those in greatest need, and that they are distributed according to the laws of physics, not by divine intervention. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that 1) God used to be compassionate in noticeably tangible ways but is not interested in being compassionate in noticeably tangible ways today, or that 2) he never was compassionate in noticeably tangible ways, or that 3) he does not exist.

It is important to note that the texts say that "both sides" were aware that Jesus had supernatural powers. Matthew 12:24 says "But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, 'It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.'" Today, both sides "are not" aware of God's supernatural power. Therefore, we don't have nearly the "evidence" today that people with "varying" world views supposedly had back then.

jemand

I believe that there is a cosmic struggle going on between God and Satan, and evil things are from the devil, not God. Sure God could stop bad things from happening, but Satan has challenged God's character and method of government, and said anyone ought to do whatever they want to do. If God were to have destroyed Satan at once, people would have believed Satan because they hadn't seen the difference between the two methods of government. When Adam and Eve sinned, they turned this world over to the devil, but God still helps in some instances. In the end, when everyone has made a descision either for God or Satan, God will make everything right.

Okay, you ask for tangible benifits God has given me. I'm going to college free because of a merit-based scholarship and I honestly believe God gave me the ability to get that. I'll also probably get busy and not be able to post often though.

This is cliche, but I've heard it said that while people wonder why God doesn't help, God wonders why people don't care.