Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 08-04-2005, 11:29 PM

Christians claim that God is perfect, but Isaiah 55:8 says "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord." You cannot possibly claim the perfection of someone whose thoughts and ways you are unaware of.

Comfort is the desired goal of Christians completely irregardless of who provides it. They would welcome a comfortable eternal life from any being, perfect or imperfect.

Matthew 14:14 says "And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick." We need compassion today just as much as people did back then, so where is Jesus or the Holy Spirit?

The Bible claims that there is tangible evidence of God’s power thousands of years ago, but what tangible evidence is there of his power and involvement in the lives of humans today? An unusual healing can happen to anyone, not just to Christians. In the world today, there is every indication that tangible good things and bad things are distributed according to the laws of physics, not by divine intervention, calling into question claims that miracles occurred thousands of years ago.

gtgauvin · 08-06-2005, 04:24 PM

Confirmation bias. A stand-up comic I watched once years ago mentioned sports figures thanking god for their successes, mentioning that no one ever said "Yeah, we were doing OK, until Jesus made me fumble!"

Johnny Skeptic · 08-06-2005, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtgauvin

Confirmation bias. A stand-up comic I watched once years ago mentioned sports figures thanking god for their successes, mentioning that no one ever said "Yeah, we were doing OK, until Jesus made me fumble!"

Now that is really good. Thanks very much.

GakuseiDon · 08-06-2005, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

The Bible claims that there is tangible evidence of God’s power thousands of years ago, but what tangible evidence is there of his power and involvement in the lives of humans today?

I'm not sure whether this is really relevent to this forum. Perhaps you may get a better response if you posted this on the GRD one?

Johnny Skeptic · 08-06-2005, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

I'm not sure whether this is really relevent to this forum. Perhaps you may get a better response if you posted this on the GRD one?

I have something much more detailed than this in the GRD forum, but I like the extra competition that I hope to get in this forum as well. My topic is suitable for this forum since it is the Biblical Criticism and History Forum. I quoted two Scriptures. They don't have anything to do with history, but they do have something to do with Biblical criticism since the Bible claims that God is good. In my opinion, the goodness of God is the most important topic of all. John 3:16 is the best known Scripture in the Bible, and its talks about God's love, which is essentially the same as his goodness. We need to know whether or not God is actually loving, and that is impossible to know unless he shows up in person, answers a lot of questions and demonstrates his goodness. If Jesus did rise from the dead, we don't know why. All that we have is the Gospel's writers word for what he said while he was on earth.

As you know, the Theology Web allows quite a lot of latitude in its Apologetics 301 Forum. I doubt that you have ever complained about it.

GakuseiDon · 08-06-2005, 10:51 PM

Fair enough. My answer, then, is that the Bible doesn't provide any tangible evidence of God's power and involvement in the lives of humans today.

Prairie Star · 08-07-2005, 05:56 AM

God is said in the Bible to be the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him...

And yet, if ever I have known honest and wholly made searches of God, devoted to the pursuit, diligent to look in the vastness of the universe, in all the corners of their own hearts, no stone left unturned...it is the seeking skeptic, the atheist...

This seems a strange thing to me, cos it is the professing believer that is claiming the reward of God found...yet I am not always too sure what the believer has truly found. And the search made smacks of being short-sighted and on the surface.

What of a God that people ascribe love, truth, and righteousness to? A God whose mercy is said to endure forever? A God who by The Book at least is responsible for atrocities done to many people groups...destroying those that are said to be held in His steadfast love and that it is His will that none perish...don't even those who say they know Him best nowadays give Him credit for their own agenda when successful...those agendas of war, hatred, intolerance, inordinate competition?

Hmmm, to the character of God. If we are to diligently seek God, then we cannot make excuses for Him. When He doesn't answer. When His ways conflict with the essential character He is said to possess. And surely The Church has that same inconsistent demonstration as the God served.

I have these questions about God, and when I felt I needed the guidance of another in faith, I was totally discouraged from the journey by Christians.

It was pretty much discounted as rebellion, this desire to know God truly and more for allowing these hard questions to surface, where prayers could be stated in truth, like the worship song: I want to know you more...

If God is said to be our shelter, why do those who claim to know Him so well attempt to cover for Him, make excuses for Him, try to shutdown the search of a heart that craves truth? What does God have to hide?

Or is He stuck in the chimney, and the reindeer on the roof are getting nervous? :huh:

Love,
PS

Joan of Bark · 08-07-2005, 07:22 AM

A relevant quote from the NIV: "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good -- except God alone." Mark 10-18

Was Jesus telling the truth? If so, Christians cannot claim Jesus was good. (And is not modesty just another form of lying?)

jonesg · 08-08-2005, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtgauvin

Confirmation bias. A stand-up comic I watched once years ago mentioned sports figures thanking god for their successes, mentioning that no one ever said "Yeah, we were doing OK, until Jesus made me fumble!"

Thats because only a screwed up athlete would think to blame God for their own failure, so don't expect to hear it too often, it should be a demonstration to you that people with a concept of God tend to be more evenly balanced.
I guess you miss the obvious .

Prairie Star · 08-08-2005, 06:26 AM

How is this the obvious jonesq?

Quote:

Thats because only a screwed up athlete would think to blame God for their own failure, so don't expect to hear it too often, it should be a demonstration to you that people with a concept of God tend to be more evenly balanced.
I guess you miss the obvious .

If God gets the credit when one excels, why does He not also get His name attached to the failures in that believer's life? :huh:

I don't get it...please state the obvious plumb line I somehow am not seein'.

Love,
PS

08-04-2005, 11:29 PM	#1
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Apologists assume too much about the nature of God Christians claim that God is perfect, but Isaiah 55:8 says "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord." You cannot possibly claim the perfection of someone whose thoughts and ways you are unaware of. Comfort is the desired goal of Christians completely irregardless of who provides it. They would welcome a comfortable eternal life from any being, perfect or imperfect. Matthew 14:14 says "And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick." We need compassion today just as much as people did back then, so where is Jesus or the Holy Spirit? The Bible claims that there is tangible evidence of God’s power thousands of years ago, but what tangible evidence is there of his power and involvement in the lives of humans today? An unusual healing can happen to anyone, not just to Christians. In the world today, there is every indication that tangible good things and bad things are distributed according to the laws of physics, not by divine intervention, calling into question claims that miracles occurred thousands of years ago.

08-07-2005, 05:56 AM	#7
Prairie Star Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 17	Protecting God God is said in the Bible to be the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him... And yet, if ever I have known honest and wholly made searches of God, devoted to the pursuit, diligent to look in the vastness of the universe, in all the corners of their own hearts, no stone left unturned...it is the seeking skeptic, the atheist... This seems a strange thing to me, cos it is the professing believer that is claiming the reward of God found...yet I am not always too sure what the believer has truly found. And the search made smacks of being short-sighted and on the surface. What of a God that people ascribe love, truth, and righteousness to? A God whose mercy is said to endure forever? A God who by The Book at least is responsible for atrocities done to many people groups...destroying those that are said to be held in His steadfast love and that it is His will that none perish...don't even those who say they know Him best nowadays give Him credit for their own agenda when successful...those agendas of war, hatred, intolerance, inordinate competition? Hmmm, to the character of God. If we are to diligently seek God, then we cannot make excuses for Him. When He doesn't answer. When His ways conflict with the essential character He is said to possess. And surely The Church has that same inconsistent demonstration as the God served. I have these questions about God, and when I felt I needed the guidance of another in faith, I was totally discouraged from the journey by Christians. It was pretty much discounted as rebellion, this desire to know God truly and more for allowing these hard questions to surface, where prayers could be stated in truth, like the worship song: I want to know you more... If God is said to be our shelter, why do those who claim to know Him so well attempt to cover for Him, make excuses for Him, try to shutdown the search of a heart that craves truth? What does God have to hide? Or is He stuck in the chimney, and the reindeer on the roof are getting nervous? :huh: Love, PS

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08-06-2005, 04:24 PM	#2
gtgauvin Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: North Carolina, en route to London Posts: 19	Confirmation bias. A stand-up comic I watched once years ago mentioned sports figures thanking god for their successes, mentioning that no one ever said "Yeah, we were doing OK, until Jesus made me fumble!"

08-06-2005, 10:51 PM	#6
GakuseiDon Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 5,714	Fair enough. My answer, then, is that the Bible doesn't provide any tangible evidence of God's power and involvement in the lives of humans today.

08-07-2005, 07:22 AM	#8
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	A relevant quote from the NIV: "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good -- except God alone." Mark 10-18 Was Jesus telling the truth? If so, Christians cannot claim Jesus was good. (And is not modesty just another form of lying?)

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