Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ApostateAbe · 05-07-2012, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

In modern times, Bruno Bauer.

Mythicism predated Bruno Bauer. Robert E. Van Voorst in his book, Jesus Outside the New Testament, claims to have found two publications of the 1790s claiming that Christianity was an amalgamation of Persian and Babylonian mythology, by Constantin-Francois Volney and Charles Francois Dupuis, both disciples of the radical English deist Lord Bolingbroke.

James The Least · 05-07-2012, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

In modern times, Bruno Bauer.

Mythicism predated Bruno Bauer. Robert E. Van Voorst in his book, Jesus Outside the New Testament, claims to have found two publications of the 1790s claiming that Christianity was an amalgamation of Persian and Babylonian mythology, by Constantin-Francois Volney and Charles Francois Dupuis, both disciples of the radical English deist Lord Bolingbroke.

Do they explicitly claim Jesus was a myth? This is news to me, I'd like to know more.

aa5874 · 05-07-2012, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

....BUT if you know the real history of the founders it makes perfect sense. I would love to hear what you think doesnt make sense.

Really JtB started the movement, jesus carried the ball after his death but after jeus death the movement faled in judaism as the romans were still oppressing and taxing as usual. he was a failed messiah. AND hi silliterate apostles had little impact within judaism. Pauls version made sense as romans were already worshipping in synagogues and had no attachments to jewish laws.

the movement was perfect for the time it offered one powerful god verses many unreliable gods, it offered free health care as they didnt charge for their healings. it took worship out of the corrupt synagogues raping tithes from people.

religion in that time was a money raping opportunity for those in charge and they exploited the poor hard working jews in the fields, the temple was also the bank/treasury and very corrupt and working hand in hand with romans as Caiaphas was appointed by romans. This roman infection in the temple is was the boiling point in jesus life that ticked jesus off so much he got violent over the corruption and was killed for it.

We are not having a STORY-TELLING competition. You may be in the wrong forum.

It is the FIVE Canonised stories of Jesus that we are analysing and there is NOTHING in them that match your story. Your story is NEW and unattested.

ApostateAbe · 05-07-2012, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Mythicism predated Bruno Bauer. Robert E. Van Voorst in his book, Jesus Outside the New Testament, claims to have found two publications of the 1790s claiming that Christianity was an amalgamation of Persian and Babylonian mythology, by Constantin-Francois Volney and Charles Francois Dupuis, both disciples of the radical English deist Lord Bolingbroke.

Do they explicitly claim Jesus was a myth? This is news to me, I'd like to know more.

According to Van Voorst on page 8, those two authors believed that "Jesus was a completely mythological figure." Van Voorst cites:

C.-F. Volney, Les ruines, ou Meditations sur les revolutions des empires (Paris: Desenne, 1791); English translation, The Ruins, or a Survey of the Revolutions of Empires (New York: Davis, 1796); C. F. Dupuis, Origine de tous les cultes (Paris: Chasseriau, 1794); [...]; English translation, The Origin of All Religious Worship (New York: Garland, 1984).

aeebee50 · 05-07-2012, 08:32 PM

Should I dare say the Holy Ghost? Most Christians would say that Jesus is in the O.T., but his name is not mentioned. Just an idea.

Solo · 05-08-2012, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApostateAbe

Quote:

Originally Posted by James The Least

Do they explicitly claim Jesus was a myth? This is news to me, I'd like to know more.

According to Van Voorst on page 8, those two authors believed that "Jesus was a completely mythological figure." Van Voorst cites:

C.-F. Volney, Les ruines, ou Meditations sur les revolutions des empires (Paris: Desenne, 1791); English translation, The Ruins, or a Survey of the Revolutions of Empires (New York: Davis, 1796); C. F. Dupuis, Origine de tous les cultes (Paris: Chasseriau, 1794); [...]; English translation, The Origin of All Religious Worship (New York: Garland, 1984).

Volney was an informing source to Napoleon Bonaparte, and a guest of both Thomas Jefferson and George Washington. He was deported by John Adams from the US for being a Fench spy.

Best,
Jiri

Dave31 · 05-08-2012, 10:09 AM

One of the best sources for information on the history of mythicism is Acharya S as her books tend to compile that history. I asked Acharya about this question from the OP and she responded:

Quote:

"A case can be made that the Docetic Gnostics were the first mythicists. However, it should be recalled that, according to the mythicist case, the first composers of the "Jesus" mythology were obviously mythicists, as they were using midrash to combine Old Testament "messianic scriptures" with the attributes of various gods and goddesses of the Pagan world. These composers of Christianity also took Buddhist texts, evidently, and reworked them to revolve around a Jewish messiah. These individuals would therefore know that the "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament was a fictional composite of characters. Hence, in that sense, the gospel composers themselves would be the first mythicists.

In any event, we have inklings of this Docetic/mythicist viewpoint in the biblical letters attributed to John, in which the writer says those who doubt Christ come in the flesh are "anti-christ." Although there are those who like to dance around this issue by saying that the Docetics believed in a "historical" Jesus of some sort or another, it is clear that "in the flesh" means "historical" in the normal, third-dimensional way, and that there were MANY such "deceivers," as 2 John 1:7 reads.

In the middle of the second century, we have Justin Martyr evidently hinting at this controversy in his *Debate with Trypho*, in which he depicts the Jew Trypho as saying that Christ is nowhere to be found and that the Christians have made a Christ of their own devising.

From that point, we do not have an extensive non-Christian body of literature to express these issues, as Christians destroyed most of the evidence that they could find. We then pass through Dark Ages, until the Age of Enlightenment, when this concept starts to show up clearly in the historical record.

It should also be recalled that this debate took place in different languages, including Latin, and not all Latin texts have been translated.

In my article Were George Washington and Thomas Jefferson Jesus Mythicists? I discuss the earliest inferences of the mythicist perspective in Latin, as well as tracing the debate to the early 18th century with the "disciples of Bollingbroke."

- Acharya S

Here are a few online articles that give a general overview on the history of mythicism but, there are more details throughout her books:

What is a Mythicist?

The History of Mythicism

The Evemerist vs. Mythicist Position

The Mythicist Position

outhouse · 05-08-2012, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave31

One of the best sources for information on the history of mythicism is Acharya S as her books tend to compile that history. I asked Acharya about this question from the OP and she responded:

Quote:

"A case can be made that the Docetic Gnostics were the first mythicists. However, it should be recalled that, according to the mythicist case, the first composers of the "Jesus" mythology were obviously mythicists, as they were using midrash to combine Old Testament "messianic scriptures" with the attributes of various gods and goddesses of the Pagan world. These composers of Christianity also took Buddhist texts, evidently, and reworked them to revolve around a Jewish messiah. These individuals would therefore know that the "Jesus Christ" of the New Testament was a fictional composite of characters. Hence, in that sense, the gospel composers themselves would be the first mythicists.

In any event, we have inklings of this Docetic/mythicist viewpoint in the biblical letters attributed to John, in which the writer says those who doubt Christ come in the flesh are "anti-christ." Although there are those who like to dance around this issue by saying that the Docetics believed in a "historical" Jesus of some sort or another, it is clear that "in the flesh" means "historical" in the normal, third-dimensional way, and that there were MANY such "deceivers," as 2 John 1:7 reads.

In the middle of the second century, we have Justin Martyr evidently hinting at this controversy in his *Debate with Trypho*, in which he depicts the Jew Trypho as saying that Christ is nowhere to be found and that the Christians have made a Christ of their own devising.

From that point, we do not have an extensive non-Christian body of literature to express these issues, as Christians destroyed most of the evidence that they could find. We then pass through Dark Ages, until the Age of Enlightenment, when this concept starts to show up clearly in the historical record.

It should also be recalled that this debate took place in different languages, including Latin, and not all Latin texts have been translated.

In my article Were George Washington and Thomas Jefferson Jesus Mythicists? I discuss the earliest inferences of the mythicist perspective in Latin, as well as tracing the debate to the early 18th century with the "disciples of Bollingbroke."

- Acharya S

Here are a few online articles that give a general overview on the history of mythicism but, there are more details throughout her books:

What is a Mythicist?

The History of Mythicism

The Evemerist vs. Mythicist Position

The Mythicist Position

If thats the best you have I feel sorry for you.

Price is much much better and has solid work and is a scholar, not a poor author misrepresenting guesses focusing on gaps of historical knowledge and filling them in with her own imagination.

Dave31 · 05-08-2012, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

If thats the best you have I feel sorry for you.

Price is much much better and has solid work and is a scholar, not a poor author misrepresenting guesses focusing on gaps of historical knowledge and filling them in with her own imagination.

More malicious smears from the Rook Hawkins fanboy club? Anybody can make such comments without knowing anything about her work. Let me guess, you're just repeating the crap you read on the net from others who also haven't studied her work. I notice you have nothing to offer to counter anything she said as if all you have to offr are derogatory comments, smears and falsehoods. Those who've actually read her books simply know better than to believe the falsehoods you've posted.

Quote:

"I find it undeniable that many of the epic heroes and ancient patriarchs and matriarchs of the Old Testament were personified stars, planets, and constellations."

"I find myself in full agreement with Acharya S/D.M. Murdock"

- Dr. Robert Price, Biblical Scholar with two Ph.D's
http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.c...rist_egypt.htm

Quote:

"Your scholarship is relentless! The research conducted by D.M. Murdock concerning the myth of Jesus Christ is certainly both valuable and worthy of consideration."
- Dr. Kenneth L. Feder, Professor of Archaeology
http://www.freethoughtnation.com/for...t=3033&start=0

outhouse · 05-08-2012, 01:22 PM

Quote:

More malicious smears from the Rook Hawkins fanboy club?

Wrong

LOL rook is someone I have never followed, I dont have a single nice word to say about such a person.

Quote:

Anybody can make such comments without knowing anything about her work.

when I quit laughing over you calling her literature "work" you will get a response.

I will follow Carrier on this subject though.

Its such poor work I even have to retrain people from the start so they can get a real grasp on valid history after reading her personal fantasy

your asking me to write a book, because thats what it takes to put all her mistakes into a single "work"

She is not a historian or scholar and knows little of the cultural anthropology of first century Israleites.

greek she knows, spin offs of christianity she knows. How to use outdated refference material and take it out of context, a pro.

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05-07-2012, 08:32 PM	#15
aeebee50 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 5,810	Should I dare say the Holy Ghost? Most Christians would say that Jesus is in the O.T., but his name is not mentioned. Just an idea.

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