Alethias

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Alethias
GRD Moderator

Jayrok

Hey Matthew,

I followed a little over at Tweb and noticed that you and JPH seemed to be on good terms with one another in debates. The number of people JPH respects in written debate is very small. A year ago or so I had a good discussion with him on various issues surrounding Paul's ministry. I found that JPH is civil to those who are respectful as he sees things. I mean, he was always nice to me. I suppose this is so because I conversed with him without asserting "challenges" or something. The moment JP thinks someone is getting arrogant, he dons his anti-athiest superhero suit. If you appear to be asking honest questions, in his eyes, he's civil.

The thing with JPH is that when he gets into a corner, he forgets the argument and attacks the credentials of the opponent. If someone has a good argument, he'll point out that the person doesn't have a PHD and therefore isn't qualified to defend such an argument. If the argument stands, it stands. But he'll ridicule the opponent drawing notice away from the fact that he didn't answer the argument and on to the issue of a non-trained scholar. And what of JPH? To my knowledge he has no credentials either other than the fact that he has connections to scholars and good researching skills and materials at his disposal. He'll admit that he uses those experts and quotes them as his support.

The other thing I've noticed with his site and sites like Glen Miller's... often times instead of proving the positive, or defending biblical events, they point out flaws in the skeptic's argument. In other words, instead of defending the faith with substantive evidence, they claim victory by pointing out a speculative flaw in the argument. But the gist of the argument survives and sometimes goes unnoticed... except to the reader. If a skeptic claims the exodus never occured as written, instead of providing compelling evidence to the contrary, these guys will concentrate on the claim and come up with something like "in an honor-shame society, people didn't document events, etc..." The honor-shame thing is JP's favorite. But instead of pointing out a non-related flaw in the claim, where's the positive evidence of the exodus? This gets diverted with discussion and/or ridicule of the skeptic's claim. Bait and switch.

I think JPH is a smart fellow, but his arragance over-shadows much of that and usually turns off any new reader, who happens to be a nontheist. Christians eat him up as is evidenced by his horde of fans over there. He even has a couple that try/want to be like him (Darth Executioner and Mountain Man). I pity the nontheist who just shows up over there and posts the usual arguments of a new nontheist... you know the ones. He will undoubtedly be called stupid, get emoticons of drooling trolls, etc.. thrown at him and if he's really special, he'll get a cartoon made of him displayed at Tectonics.

I don't post as much on Tweb as I used to, but I lurk now and then to see if anything is new. There usually isn't, although there are some good new posters there, such as Carped. I always enjoy reading LGM too. He's a trip and keeps them all in line with his wit.

Don't feel bad about your conclusion and lost "friendship". JPH's mission in life is to put out fires. It doesn't matter how he does it as long as the christian reader is left with a good feeling of security in the faith. If skeptics, like yourself, keep offering compelling arguments to challenge people like him, more and more people will begin to see through his brand of apologetics. They'll see the diversion tactics and mirrors/literary gymnastics, etc..

I would be interested in reading any essay you write, Matthew. Good luck to you and keep plugging away. There are many people on the fence... and there are more lurkers on sites like this and Tweb than you know.

Celine

Farrell Till, who posts here occasionally, regularly hands Turkel his ass. In fact, I think Turkel, like most hyenas who get thrashed often enough, has retreaded from any contact with Till. I could be wrong.

I think of Turkel as the Ann Coulter of pop religion. Essentially a venom-driven provocateur, entranced in his own "cleverness."

But I think there's one essential issue here. I'm reminded of a professor of argument I once had, who clarified for me something to the tune of this:
1. Some people argue only to defend a presupposition, or to attack others who threaten that position.
2. Some people argue, in good faith, to discover something of value. Perhaps something that none of us knew before. Perhaps something that, in the end, causes one to re-examine one's assumptions.

Most people, if they thought about it, would see the superiority of method #2, I suspect.

Matthew_Green

Jayrok writes:

"I think JPH is a smart fellow, but his arragance over-shadows much of that and usually turns off any new reader, who happens to be a nontheist. Christians eat him up as is evidenced by his horde of fans over there. He even has a couple that try/want to be like him (Darth Executioner and Mountain Man). I pity the nontheist who just shows up over there and posts the usual arguments of a new nontheist... you know the ones. He will undoubtedly be called stupid, get emoticons of drooling trolls, etc.. thrown at him and if he's really special, he'll get a cartoon made of him displayed at Tectonics."

I haven't seen many of Darth's post but I do know of Mountain Man and I sometimes think that bastard is almost as arrogant as Turkel is. MM not only wants to be like him, I have the honest impression that MM guru-worships Turkel. I have seen him arrogantly scoff at people and treat them like they're so stupid compared to him and his beloved apologist. He, too, has an appallingly arrogant opinion of his own intelligence. Another one is "Tophet" who seems to blindly guru-worship Turkel as well and thinks Turkel can do no wrong. Xavier is not so much a Turkel-worshipper but is also pretty damned arrogant and really has his head up his ass.

I also appreciate the comment that you made to me. If you would be happy to read any essay I have written- great! It just so happens that I have a couple that I am working on and one that I have finished!

Matthew

Dargo

There is a MountainMan who posts here, but he is certainly not a Christian. He's an extreme Jesus myther going so far as to claim that the entire New Testament was a 4th century forgery. You'd expect it to be a lot more consistant if it had a common author.

Jayrok

Congrats on your essays, hope to see you publish them somewhere soon.

Xavier is a college student IIRC and he's arrogant as well. I don't know much about Tophet. MM has evolved during the time I've been on Tweb. At first he sort of went with the flow, but in recent months he's taken on a whole new life. He's always referencing one of Turkel's articles and he mostly just talks down to his discussion mates anymore. John Loftus pegged him good one day when he called MM out on what he really is... MM is a hopeless fundy and will defend even the most rediculous notions to keep that frail faith alive.

Darth is a complete joke. LGM calls him minni-me (sidekick to Turkel). If you read much of Darth's stuff, you'd swear it was someone desperately trying to mimic Turkel. Sad really. What's funny about those people is that they believe different things at the core. I mean, Turkel is a preterist along with the owner of Tweb. I don't think MM is. But they believe Jesus has already came back and did everything he's supposed to do. They're all loons.

Jayrok

It's a different Mountain Man. Those two are polar opposites in fact.