Matthew_Green

A bit recently, I wrote a blog post on "Debunking Christianity" which is owned by a fellow former Christian and pal of mine, John Loftus. I wanted to recap here what I wrote there and expand on it a bit. I am a former fan of the Christian apologist Robert Turkel, who uses the writing name "James Patrick Holding" and I was a fan of his until I deconverted. Even after I deconverted, I tried, after some time, to become friendly with him, hoping that contrary to most Christian stereotypes, that I could become an "esteemed skeptic" and "model atheist" for the Christian community. To that end, I engaged in a friendly Scholarly Diplomacy Series with Turkel by becoming a favorite debating partner of his.

I want to announce here that I was wrong. I was wrong ever to become friends with Robert Turkel or thinking that I could befriend him, in hopes of earning a positive reputation in the Christian community. John Loftus predicted that the friendship would not last and that Turkel would do something that would turn me against him. Loftus called it right: the fact of the matter is that I realized that Turkel is not the kind of person who I want to befriend. While Turkel can come across as friendly and good-humored, I see more damning qualities in Turkel's behavior than whatever can be construed as good.

One big problem I have with him is his ego. Turkel has become so arrogant to the point where I nearly consider him to be pathologically arrogant. Turkel has a very egotistical opinion of his own intelligence. He thinks that just about everyone who disagrees with him is just so damned stupid compared to him! It's bad enough that he insulted good skeptics like Steven Carr, Farrell Till, and others but his arrogance is such that he has even resorted to insulting and arrogantly mocking trained scholars such as Richard Carrier, Robert M Price, and Bart Ehrman.

I have no problem with him disagreeing with people and using satire in his attempts at replying to people. I DO have a problem with him insulting the intelligence of anyone who doesn't share his views if that person is not a Christian. He constantly insults and degrades people who are biblical scholars (and he is what? A former prison librarian?). I understand that his criticism towards sketpics of the Bible who really are ignorant and think that just trying to read the Bible critically is enough to refute fundamentalism. In a number of cases, I can see how the criticism is deserved and some skeptics should rightfully be taken to task for trying to critique something they don't have the education and tools to do so competently.

A big part of my problem, however, is that Turkel insults even trained scholars. His sneering tone and arrogantly mockery of Robert Price, Bart Ehrman, Richard Carrier, and others is just sickening. Turkel not only thinks he's an intellectual, but he seems to fancy himself as being something of a hyper-intellectual. I am sorry that I may have contributed to that in any way. However, his egotism has gotten to the point where it is too inflated. Turkel seems to regard himself as beyong criticism. If someone brings up a criticism of his personality or something, he responds by trying to bring up a flaw of his accuser, no matter how irrelevant or trivial that fault is. If someone takes Turkel to task for X (where X can be his famous software blunder or name-calling), Turkel will bring up Y or even Z ( Y or Z can be something so irrelevant and trivial as to be a nonissue) and dodges criticism by throwing it back at his would-be accuser (it seems then that only a morally perfect person, then, can successfully take Turkel to task for anything he does wrong). This makes me absolutely sick!

I have come to view Turkel as a bully of sorts. If anyone says anything in the least bit negative about him, he challenges that person to come to TheologyWeb so he and his gang of like-minded, sycophants (several of whom are just as ARROGANT as he is and are also angrily self-righteous) can gang up on Turkel's critic. This is childish but yet Turkel is just in it for the victory: you either force the critic to convert or you destroy that critic! I recall Turkel absolutely itching to try and have Brian Flemming at TWeb so he and his buddies could gang up and crucify him in a debate! Flemming, to my knowledge, hasn't gone there and for good reason!

Turkel is a bully and wants any potential victim to come to his hang-out so he and his fellow bullies can gang-up on someone and beat them. It's all an exercize in ego-masturbation. In the end, Turkel thinks he's hot stuff! Turkel was so desperate to have Flemming come to TWeb so he could pounce to death on Flemming.

I have to agree with Turkel's critics! Turkel will alter or edit his essays when his lack of research has been pointed out and not notify anyone. He has a nasty habit of misrepresenting people and making straw men out of people's arguments. He dodges criticisms of his personality, tactics, and behavior by always pointing out flaws in other people, no matter how irrelevant, minor, or inconsequential that flaw or error is. Turkel takes people to task, even trained and degreed scholars, so as to bolster his own ego under the pretense of protecting "frightened sheep" (many of whom are damned stupid morons to begin with!)

I have made a decision to break off all contact with Turkel and end my friendship with him. I now hold him in the same regard as I do a sexual predator or a sleazy politician who will lie, cheat, and steal just to score a cheap vote. I closed my original post on here by apologizing to Steven Carr and Farrell Till. I am happy to say that I am once again friends with both Carr and Till and that there is no bad blood that of know of between us. Till even told me that he was just glad I finally saw through Turkel.

I wanted to apologize to anyone who I might have offended here or elsewhere by trying to befriend and even defending that creep! I have to say that I deeply loathe Turkel now. I am planning on a future essay or so where I have documented examples of Turkel's evasions and other tactics and even one or two showing how Turkel's own beloved social-science arguments backfire on him and instead support Farrell Till!

I want to make sure that everyone here understands that I am no longer friends with Turkel and I am sorry for any hurt or bad blood that has caused. There are times where I wish I did put him in his place but to my shame I didn't and I accept this shame as I did in my original blogpost on the subject. I only hope that I haven't isolated anyone else to such an extent that I cannot be forgiven.

Matthew

Ponzi

I hadn't heard of this guy before, so I decided to look at his site. You're right about Turkel's arrogance, and the actual content of his arguments so far leave me unimpressed.

ELECTROGOD

Hey, we see it all the time. When you don't have anything to back up your position then get nasty!

Splarnst

I've loathed Turkel from the first moment I found his website. Ick.

PopeInTheWoods

Don't beat yourself up too bad, it appears to have been a noble effort on your part to respectfully engage someone with opposing viewpoints, and give him the benefit of the doubt. You had no control over the respect not being reciprocated.

Andy

steamer

I know this character. He was the first person I encountered on Tweb. I'm sure he would love to find out someone spent 10 minutes writing something about him.

You don't have to tell me, but what was your handle on Tweb? Mine was steamer.

Dogen

I used to eat up what Turkel wrote. But now his apologetics just don't impress me.

Matthew_Green

My handle on TWeb was "Matthew". Subsequently, I quit going there. I mean, I am not sure I see much point to posting there anymore at the minute. As for him finding out what I wrote here- I am not so sure I really care anymore. I mean, hell, if I wrote an essay critical of the Christian religion and I got my own spot on his Tekton Encyclopedia where he tries to take me to task and rebut me, fine. In fact, I'd consider it a badge of honor to make it on his list of critics he takes seriously enough to rebut.

Matthew

Matthew_Green

Just curiously, are you a Christian these days? What do you think of him now?

Matthew

Dogen

Hi Matthew,
Nope, not a Christian any more. Now had you asked me that a couple years ago, I would have answered in the affirmative. I think Turkel's apologetics are more about competition than truth - he's just got to be right no matter what. Now I've never talked to him or debated with him or anything, but what I've seen in his writing over the last few years, and what I've heard about him from fellows like yourself, well, let's just say I'm not the least bit surprised by what you have to say about him.

As for his apologetics, I see them for what they are: a lot of fluff. I mean, who can take his arguments for Christianity seriously?

That's number 14 of the "17 reasons why Christianity could not have survived in the ancient world unless it had indisputable evidence of the resurrection of Jesus." Absolutely juvenile.