Ben C Smith

On the Thoughts on Antiquity weblog, Shandruk presents a recent parallel to the idea that Jesus might be a fictional figure created in plain view of near contemporary history, which may be of interest to some on this forum.

Ben.

gstafleu

An interesting link, Thanks Ben.

While we are on the subject of fraud, someone who immediately springs to mind is Joseph Smith and his golden tablets. I won't repeat the story here, I'm sure it is familiar. So here is a question: why is Paul not a Joseph Smith? We have, in Joseph Smith, a clear example of a con artist (he apparently even has a prior conviction as such) who via personal "revelations" manages to start, or at least heavily influence, a religious movement. Paul did much the same thing: personal revelations, invisible to others, that he used to influence believers. So, how certain are we Paul was not a con man? We have a pretty good example in JS, so why should we say of Paul "But of course Paul was sincere..."?

Gerard Stafleu

andrewcriddle

There are certain specific issues with Carlos Castaneda's books, most importantly the fact that don Juan Matus was admitted to be a false name, that would have made forgery easy.

Once one starts openly changing things to supposedly protect the people involved, the problem of fraud becomes potentially very serious.


Andrew Criddle

joedad

Great read.

From a literary standpoint what exactly is the difference between forgery and fiction? Aren’t they the same thing? Short a consistent and meaningful methodology, it seems simply up to the reader.

If inconsistencies in the written accounts demonstrate forgery, the gospels are forged accounts.

Doug Shaver

There was no Mormon religion before Joseph Smith. Or at least, Smith said there wasn't. There was some kind of Christians before Paul. Or at least, Paul said there was, and he named some of its leaders. Unlike Smith, he wasn't claiming to be the first and only person getting a revelation about the Christ.

Solo

Let's just say it is not always clear the left brain knows what the right brain is doing..

Jiri

Solo

Gerard, have you ever met a con man who insisted on making a living by manual labour ? Because I haven't.

Jiri

youngalexander

Ahh, but whose word do we have for that?

Clivedurdle

Fasinating response at that link!

We have people talking about having visions of the christ, some of them are really really really into playing with numbers, they claim they know the secrets of the universe - I am the way the truth and the life, they are predicting the end times.

I am going to do a CS Lewis here.

Which is it?

The Lord Jesus Christ is a godman saviour of the universe

We are looking at a wonderful amalgam of story telling and myth and it is very unclear if the authors had modern distinctions between fraud, invention and storytelling and in fact were impressively post modernist, eclectic and chintzy in their attitudes!

Should xianity be listed in an index of scams or fiction or recipe books?

A soup and marinade with all the leftovers they could find around the place!

jules?

I read and enjoyed CC books but after a while its seemed more logical that here was a student of shamanism working in a library rather than the field. And in some respects it was a 'noble lie' simply because Indian culture in a purely academic context would have been dry and dusty and most importantly unread. By putting himself in the first person we can share the experiance and also appreciate shamanism as an ancient belief system. It works as the Holy Blood Holy Grail vs DaVinci Code demonstrates.

Was the hoax a noble lie or purely a means to get the degree and book sales? Probably a little of both but so what. Sure if the Don Juan religion gets out of hand and they start killing for the faith then we have a problem.

Paul is a similar example, he did not invent Jesus or though he may have invented the messiah as a vision. And Paul was probably turning in a nice living, he is always in prison [but the nice guard has no problem handling his mail and ensuring the desperatly needed funds go to the correct need]. In fact the 'i'm in prison send money' quote seperates the real letters from the fraudulant.

Lucian makes it very clear that scams were all the rage and Celsus comments that xstians were particularly brainwashed into accepting nonsense.

Islam spread in the wake of conquest, Buddhism spread within a tradition of travelling holy men, Christianity is unique and even the missionary work today seems to be headed up by corporate business selling hope on satilite t.v.

Maybe it did spread across the empire as a franchise as I still fail to find a vehicle.