Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Nihlo · 11-04-2005, 09:09 AM

First, my apologies if this has already been raised....

In the film, the viewer is presented with a version of Hebrews 8:4 that reads something like "If [Jesus] had been on earth, he would not have been a priest."

However, in every translation I've seen, the verse reads more like "If [Jesus] were on earth, he should not be a priest." I don't know if the guy who wrote "The Jesus Puzzle" confronted this issue, since I haven't read the book yet.

So does anyone have any thoughts on this? Is the film presenting a bad interpretation to bolster its case, or is it that the interpretation has been altered by Christians to such a degree that even www.skepticsannotatedbible.com is under its sway?

Toto · 11-04-2005, 11:09 AM

I expect that Brian Flemming was relying on Doherty's work, The Sound of Silence: Hebrews

Quote:

3 Every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices: hence, this one too must have something to offer. 4 Now if he had been on earth, he would not even have been a priest, since there are already priests who offer the gifts which the Law prescribes, 5 though they minister in a sanctuary which is only a copy and shadow of the heavenly. . . . [NEB]

This passage might be called a "smoking gun," for it virtually spells out that Jesus had never been on earth. Though the point may seem trivial (and it is), the writer is comparing the heavenly High Priest, Christ, with his earthly counterparts, and here he makes the passing comment that Christ on earth would have nothing to do, since there are and have been priests who perform this role which the Law requires.

The tense here is ambiguous. The Greek for the key phrase is "ei men oun en epi ges" or literally: "now, therefore, if he were on earth," with the verb "were" in the imperfect. This is, strictly speaking, a past tense, and the NEB translation above reflects this, with its clear implication that Jesus had never been to earth. Scholars, naturally, shy away from this meaning. Paul Ellingworth [NIGT, Hebrews, p.405] admits that the NEB is grammatically possible, "since the imperfect in unreal conditions is temporally ambiguous." But he counters: "However, it goes against the context, in at least apparently excluding Christ's present ministry, and it could also be misunderstood as meaning that Jesus had never 'been on earth.' He thus opts for a translation like most others, "If he were [now] on earth, he would not be a priest at all."

Read more at the link.

Nihlo · 11-04-2005, 11:41 AM

Thanks a lot for that.

andrewcriddle · 11-07-2005, 01:01 PM

Surely the point is simply that Jesus cannot at one and the same time be present on earth and also acting as a priest in the heavenly sanctuary, (which is where he is entitled to exercise priestly ministry and not in the earthly temple in Jerusalem).

I don't think the logic of the argument has any implication of where Jesus was before beginning ministering as priest in the heavenly sanctuary.

Andrew Criddle

pachomius2000 · 11-07-2005, 04:53 PM

I am sorry for my inadequacy of knowledge in regard to Jewish priestly elites during the times of Jesus Christ.

Tell me, people here who are knowledgeable, was Jesus as we know Him from the Bible, by blood lineage of the what I might call priestly caste among the Jews?

I had always known from stock knowledge that though He was supposed to be the Messiah to come for His followers, that is, was he also by blood a member of the priestly caste.

Isn't the priestly caste among the Jews original from appointment by Moses -- oh oh, my profound ignorance might be showing here -- and from those persons appointed by Moses, their descendants are the ones qualified by blood to be priests?

Help! I need education in regard to priestly qualifications among the Jews of Jesus' days.

Pachomius

Secular Pinoy · 11-07-2005, 04:59 PM

The "priestly caste" were the Zadokites (Sadducees during JHC's time), and they were descendants of Zadok. I doubt that the biblical Jesus descended from their sect.

andrewcriddle · 11-07-2005, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pachomius2000

I am sorry for my inadequacy of knowledge in regard to Jewish priestly elites during the times of Jesus Christ.

Tell me, people here who are knowledgeable, was Jesus as we know Him from the Bible, by blood lineage of the what I might call priestly caste among the Jews?

I had always known from stock knowledge that though He was supposed to be the Messiah to come for His followers, that is, was he also by blood a member of the priestly caste.

Isn't the priestly caste among the Jews original from appointment by Moses -- oh oh, my profound ignorance might be showing here -- and from those persons appointed by Moses, their descendants are the ones qualified by blood to be priests?

Help! I need education in regard to priestly qualifications among the Jews of Jesus' days.

Pachomius

Priests are Levites and more specifically (supposed) descendants of Aaron).

There is no suggestion in the NT that Jesus was to be regarded as a priest due to his levitical descent (and Hebrews 7:14 would seem to argue otherwise). Jesus is regarded as a descendant of Judah and more specifically of David. Hebrews makes him a priest after the order of Melchizedek which is quite a separate idea from levitical priesthood.

However some early Christians argued on the basis of the claims in Luke that John the Baptist was of priestly descent and that John and Jesus were related that Jesus was of priestly descent.

Andrew Criddle

11-04-2005, 09:09 AM	#1
Nihlo Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: British Columbia Posts: 64	A Problem with "The God Who Wasn't There" [Heb 8:4] First, my apologies if this has already been raised.... In the film, the viewer is presented with a version of Hebrews 8:4 that reads something like "If [Jesus] had been on earth, he would not have been a priest." However, in every translation I've seen, the verse reads more like "If [Jesus] were on earth, he should not be a priest." I don't know if the guy who wrote "The Jesus Puzzle" confronted this issue, since I haven't read the book yet. So does anyone have any thoughts on this? Is the film presenting a bad interpretation to bolster its case, or is it that the interpretation has been altered by Christians to such a degree that even www.skepticsannotatedbible.com is under its sway?

11-07-2005, 04:53 PM	#5
pachomius2000 Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Somewhere in time Posts: 1,072	Jesus from the caste of priests and levites? I am sorry for my inadequacy of knowledge in regard to Jewish priestly elites during the times of Jesus Christ. Tell me, people here who are knowledgeable, was Jesus as we know Him from the Bible, by blood lineage of the what I might call priestly caste among the Jews? I had always known from stock knowledge that though He was supposed to be the Messiah to come for His followers, that is, was he also by blood a member of the priestly caste. Isn't the priestly caste among the Jews original from appointment by Moses -- oh oh, my profound ignorance might be showing here -- and from those persons appointed by Moses, their descendants are the ones qualified by blood to be priests? Help! I need education in regard to priestly qualifications among the Jews of Jesus' days. Pachomius

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11-04-2005, 11:41 AM	#3
Nihlo Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: British Columbia Posts: 64	Thanks a lot for that.

11-07-2005, 01:01 PM	#4
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	Surely the point is simply that Jesus cannot at one and the same time be present on earth and also acting as a priest in the heavenly sanctuary, (which is where he is entitled to exercise priestly ministry and not in the earthly temple in Jerusalem). I don't think the logic of the argument has any implication of where Jesus was before beginning ministering as priest in the heavenly sanctuary. Andrew Criddle

11-07-2005, 04:59 PM	#6
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	The "priestly caste" were the Zadokites (Sadducees during JHC's time), and they were descendants of Zadok. I doubt that the biblical Jesus descended from their sect.

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