Jagella

To provide any more examples of the New Testament’s passages that refer to hell would evidently be an exercise in futility. May I ask you to provide examples of passages that state that hell is merely a place where souls are to be “annihilated�?

I know that.

Then you better try harder. Frankly, the assertion that the New Testament does not mention hell—an eternal place of suffering for the souls of the damned—is a crackpot idea with less than a snowball’s chance in hell of gaining widespread acceptance among Bible scholars. I will believe it when I see it which I suppose may happen right after biologists capture live specimens of Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster.

Jagella

Jagella

I find the idea of “eternal fires� with nothing to burn rather silly. Be that as it may, I’ve already posted at least one passage that speaks of eternal damnation, but here’s two for your convenience:

As I hope you realize, an “annihilated soul� cannot be punished or “damned.�

Jagella

Amaleq13

I look forward to Diogenes' response to the two passages you offered but, until then:

Me too but I also find it silly to assume that an "eternal fire" can only burn eternally if it is fed souls.

I don't realize this because it is not obviously true. I would consider annihilation to qualify as a punishment and one condemned to that fate, damned.

Jagella

Yes to your first question. As to your second question:

As you can see, the synoptic gospels were written late in the first century. John was written then or perhaps a bit later in the beginning of the second century.

Jagella

Diogenes the Cynic

You haven't provided a single one yet. You've proven only that you can't read Greek and you know nothing of ancient Jewish eschatology.
They are the very passages which you quoted. They reference Gehenna and eternal flames. We know from other sources, including the Talmud, that the Valley of Gehenna was envisioned as the place where sinners would tossed on judgement day. There is NOTHING in all of rabbinic literature or the Hebrew Bible which even comes close to referencing anything like an eternal hell. The Talmud explicitly denies it.

It is incumbant upon YOU, therefore, to prove that the references to Gehenna in Matthew meant something other than the ordinary Jewish conception. I will ask you again. How are the passages in Matthew different than 1st century Palestinian conceptions of Gehenna?
With all due respect, it is ALREADY the widespread view of Bible scholars. I challenge you to find a single reputable NT scholar (not counting Christian apologists) who would say that the NT definitely makes any mention of Christian hell and I double dare you to find one who thinks that 1st century Palestinian Jews had any such belief.

I understand this information comes as a shock to you but it simply isn't correct to say that it's a "crackpot idea," nor is it correct to say that it isn't accepted by scholars.

Jagella

I didn’t realize that the issue here was whether or not I was reasonable. In any case, I hope you realize that if anything is unreasonable, then it is an ad hominem argument. Let’s stick with the issues and refrain from the personal attacks. Agreed?

Jagella

Diogenes the Cynic

Why does a fire need souls to be eternal? (And like I said, it wasn't souls but physical bodies that were going to burned)
And neither passage says that they will be. Once again, the devil is in the translation. Your quotation from Matthew says kolasin aiwnion (kolasin aionion). Kolasis can be translated as "punishment," but it's also the word for a "judgement" or "sentence." In the context of Gehenna, this just means eternal death.

Your quotation from Mark is a flat out mistranslation. Thw word translated as "damnation" is hamartematos- "sin." The passage says whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit "is in a state of eternal SIN," not "damnation.
Luke knows Josephus which means it couldn't have been written until the mid-90's (when Josephus was published) and probably later.

Diogenes the Cynic

If you think you're being personally attacked then use the "Report to moderator" function. Speaking as a moderator, I don't think that Sensei said anything out of line to you. He made a comment about how you were responding to arguments. It was very mild. It was not a "personal attack."

Sensei Meela

No attack intended; speaking as a third-party observer, your position on the author's intended meaning appeared to me to be unreasonably held in light of the evidence and arguments you'd been presented.

What were we talking about again? Ah yes, hypocracy; now, would that be the ancient/Greek concept (which apparently Jesus used) or the modern one? Specifically, did Jesus profess a belief he did not hold or behave contrary to a professed belief when he told the Pharisees that they would be going to 'hell' (under whatever concept)? Now, in your own words:
Where, specifically do you think he falters? For he seems to be warning the Pharisees, detailing the faults that will flay them if continued; scare tactics aside, surely you could not fault a man who is trying to show you the errors in your way so as to lead you to salvation, no? If he did not love his enemies, do you think he would warn them of their fate or explain why they were so fated?

But an even subtler nuance is presented, considering the doctrine that Jesus is God; where does his 'blessing of those that hate him' begin to interfere with the fairness and perfection of his divine judgement? Worth considering, perhaps.

Tachakuma

This is my second post. i figured that i wouldn't post this then i decided what the hell. Oh no Jesus is not a hypcrite! Hey, D the Cynic and Jagella you two are pretty cool. i've seen some of your other post in other forums i think you both are pretty wonderful. however, now that i am here let the party start. my curent problem is that there are so many interesting threads going on that i don't know which one to follow, this is my first forum. this maybe to long but.....!

I never believed in Hell although I believe in Heaven. I guess that seems idiotic like believing in the North Pole but not the South Pole. Yet, if there is such a place as Hell then my idea of God is dead wrong! It is believed that Hell is a place of torment and suffering. It is a place of eternal fire that burns your very soul. It is believed that we go to Hell to pay for our sins. Which can only last from 80 to 120 years. But, I cannot image any sin or series of sins that would warrant an eternity of ceaseless suffering. I can see spending maybe 200 years in Hell for my sins, but eternity no way! Eternity is just to long. Yes, I know what some people think. They believe that going to Hell is a personal choice. All you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and it can be avoided. Okay whatever!

Okay, imagine that you are one of the blessed one in Heaven praising God. It is believed that you can look over and see the suffering souls in Hell. Imagine looking over and seeing your family and friends squirming in hellfire. Imagine them crawling over each other trying to escape! Imagine them calling out to you for mercy or a glass of water! Can you hear their cries as demons and other unspeakable horrors are fanning the eternal flames? Can you feel the heat from where you stand? Now, imagine by some miracle that one of your children escapes while Satan is busy throwing lumps of coal down your sister’s throat and kicking your mother in the anus! Now, watch as your child is hurled back into the pit of spiritual burning flesh! You can see and hear Satan and his’ demons chuckling with unholy glee at such a futile attempt! Now, while Satan is busy laughing your mother tries to escape. She is also caught! But, for her foolish efforts she gets the rack. Now, watch as her back breaks and her flesh is stripped from her bones. You can see and hear the flesh being torn from her body only to be renewed again. Now, everyone is suffering, but Satan and his demons. They are having a devilish time and enjoying themselves despite the heat! Now watch as he sticks a pitchfork into your best friend’s eye. Watch as he beats your father and brother with a red-hot whip taking chucks of flesh off with every snap, crackle and pop! Can you see him? Now imagine that he suddenly turns to you and smiles. He knows that you are utterly helpless to do anything except watch his despicable acts of brutality. He looks at you safely in Heaven and dares you to cross the void. “Come on, snap, crackle and pop come and get me,� he cries! Imagine turning to look at your God with tears streaming down your face. But, He is detached, unmoved and unresponsive. Suddenly, you hear an awful loud shrill sound. Not knowing what it is, but knowing the direction you turn towards Hell. You then realize that it is the sound of Satan’s laughter! You can smell his reeking rotten breath from across the abyss! So, you turn your back and close your eyes to the bedlam that is going on across the void. But, nothing can erase the memory of the stench of burning spiritual flesh. Nothing can erase the memory of Satan’s putrid breath! Nothing can deaden that loud shrill sound. Nothing can erase the memory of flesh being ripped from the bone. And for the rest of eternity you will always hear the cries of the dammed!

Now you are standing at the edge of this great chasm with all the joys that you shared with your friends and family running through your mind. Can you feel the strings of spiritual sanity slowly slipping from their moorings! Can you feel that pain in your chest? That is your heart being shattered, just in case you didn’t know! Do you remember the joys that you shared? Do you remember the day that your children were born? Do you remember the day they took their first wobbly steps? I recall that the first intelligible words from my son Johnathan’s month were, “hi, Daddy hi!� Can you remember all the love that was shared? Can you relive all of the trails and tribulations that were overcame? You have spent your entire life loving and nurturing these people in intimate contact! Now, they are burning in some godforsaken inferno because they did not believe! They are suffering because they lost their faith by the wayside? They are tormented because they made some mistakes! Because, they committed a few sins they are now damned! They will be punished forever because they did not accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior? Yet, it is believed that this was their choice! Being free willed individuals they choose to go to Hell over Heaven by their actions.

Now, apparently this Hell issue is supposed to be writing down in the Bible as the inspired word of God. Well, what about the inspired words of the other world religions that don’t mention a Hell. Even if they do it doesn’t last for eternity! Well according to some Christians those people are all Hell bound beyond a shadow of a doubt! I am sorry I consider myself to be a Christian and I still can’t buy it! Maybe there is something wrong with my faith, or I am reading a different Bible? Regardless, I still cannot rationalize a place such as Hell. What kind of omnipotent, omnipresent and all-knowing Being would devise a place to torture people for eternity? Do you realize how long eternity is? It is when God dies or the universe ends. Now, that is a lot of torment, comparatively speaking, for just a few years of sinning. It is just not possible! It can not be! Something is wrong!

Who was the idiot that started this insane roller coaster ride? In the beginning Hell was use by the church to frighten people into behaving properly! It was use to frighten people into salvation. There was even a time that you could pay the church to remove your sins! But, if you didn’t have the money then to Hell with you, and tell Old Scratch I said, “hello!� However, I think that it is obvious that we must first forgive ourselves of sin before we can be saved! So, I believe that Hell is what we create within ourselves. So, we cannot run to the church to save us from Hell if we are just carrying it around inside! We are the manufactures of Hell. We are the producers of misery! Look at the nightly news sometimes we are responsible for all of that death and destruction! Some fallen angel couldn’t have caused it all. Even if Satan does exists the only power that that fiend has is the power that we give him. Since, we are made in the image of God we are also co-creators with the Creator. We have the powers of God at our fingertips. So, we are obligated to use that power to rid ourselves of Satan and all Hells! Once we have knowledge of sin and evil then we must do everything in our power to combat it. If not then Hell will come and damn you through whom it comes!

How do we avoid Hell? We avoid Hell by helping others and ourselves asking nothing in return. We show compassion! We practice mercy! We love our neighbor as we love ourselves! We seek to know God on a personal level through prayer, fasting and meditation! We embrace the fact that all of humanity and God are one. So what we do or don’t do for the unfortunate of humanity we do or don’t do for God! We move away from our animalistic natures and embrace the god within. Actually, some of us are more contemptible than animals. Because animals don’t do the things that we do. Even an animal can show compassion and mercy. Yet, we have become insensitive to human pain and suffering as we sit and watch the nightly news! Human pain and suffering has been consigned to a conversational piece at the dinner table! Therefore, we must strive to heal the world and eradicate the places of Hell! We cannot just drop to our knees and pray for a miracle without first setting the proper course or direction for that miracle. We cannot just have faith, for faith without works is dead. God does not just remove our pain and suffering. We have to do our part by helping others and ourselves! It is only then that we can truly escape the horrors of Hell. And, I don’t mean some fictitious burning lake of fire used to frighten small children into behaving properly! So, there must be another answer and we just have to find it. For, Hell is Heaven and Heaven is Hell!

I stood at the edge of the great chasm with the joys of my friends and family running through my mind! As I looked over the gulf into Hell I saw them being tortured! I heard the laughter of the Unspeakable Evil! I smelled the stench of burning spiritual flesh! I heard the screams of the damned. I then turned and looked to my God imploring Him to help the suffering souls in Hell. He replied, “No, it was their choice not to praise and worship My name!� I turned away and looked over the vast crowd of the blessed! I heard them praising and worshipping God, and my heart shattered! My joyful song has turned to mourning! But, those who were exalted required of me a song! I shouted, “How, how can I sing the Lord’s song in a strange land?� It was then that I felt the last string rip from the moorings of my spiritual sanity! I turned and ran towards my God cursing His unholy name! The closer I got the more I felt my spirit change! My glorious wings fell from my shoulders! My pure white robe became tattered and dirty! I suddenly grew a tail and horns! My unblemished hands became talons and there was another war in Heaven.

Keep Looking!