Originally Posted by mountainman

. .
. . .Item 73

The Roman poet Cicero (106-43 BCE)
Cicero chanced upon this poem and translated it to Latin.
The Sibyl, Constantine said, had prophecised christ
in an acrostic, known to Cicero. . .

Originally Posted by ph2ter

It is obvious that NT Jesus is modeled according to those prophecies and not that some real person living in 1st century complies with them.

Originally Posted by semiopen

Actually, I've fulfilled all these prophecies except:

I'm sitting at the left hand of God.

Close but no cigar, but at least I don't get bitch slapped as much.

Originally Posted by Sandie5

Those prophesies are all very nice but the Messiah's first job is to bring about world peace which Jesus failed to do. Being spit upon and nailed to a tree won't make him a messiah. So his followers say he will return to do job one - world wide peace.

There were many people in his day and since that claim to be the messiah. Still no peace, though.

Peace all over the world is just a fairytale. Mind you, Jesus gives hope to the hopeless, which is a nice side effect.

Originally Posted by semiopen

I don't know Greek but my understanding is that parthenos is an accurate translation of almah. I don't believe that this word has a hard translation of virgin either, and lands somewhere in the contiuum young woman -> virgin.

It's not such a terrible abuse. Isaiah probably didn't mean virgin, but what's the difference if he did.

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

It is interesting to note that there is not any credible evidence that any of those prophecies was divinely inspired. I request that arnoldo pick whichever of those prophecies that he wants to discuss, or all of them one by one if that is what he wants to do.

Originally Posted by aa5874

Something went terribly wrong with Jesus of the NT, he managed to fulfill many of so-called prophecies but was executed for blasphemy,

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Considering that the following writing is considered to be an interpolation;

On what basis do you determine the Sibyl "prophetic" acrostic not to be an interpolation as well?

Originally Posted by arnoldo

FYI, the execution was also a prophecy. Isaiah 53

Originally Posted by Delos McKown, Ph.D.

In Isaiah 53 there is a famous passage taken to be a prediction of Jesus. Too bad, the whole chapter is in the past tense. It has to do with somebody who has already died, not with somebody in the distant future.

Originally Posted by Rabbi Shraga Simmons

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world—on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets—Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (1) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father—and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David!

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot (commandments) remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37) For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text—which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah’s prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nazianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation—i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He’ll tell everyone, not just one person.

Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God’s true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, there is still no verification that he is a genuine prophet. Miracles do not prove anything. All they show—assuming they are genuine—is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.

Judaism, unique among all of the world’s major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):

The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone’s belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.

What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others… as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you…" The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us—who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)

Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

5) CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH THEOLOGY

The following theological points apply primarily to the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination.

A. GOD AS THREE?

The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God’s One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.

In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry—one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

B. MAN AS GOD?

Roman Catholics believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).

Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)

C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER?

The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary—i.e. confessing one’s sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."

In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)

D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD

Catholic doctrine often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest woman, is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded locations.

By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.

The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World to Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle of commercial activity. Jews don’t retreat from life, we elevate it.

6) JEWS AND GENTILES

Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. King Solomon asked God to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the Temple as a "House for all nations."

The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corresponding to the 70 nations of the world. The Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from the Temple, they’d never have destroyed it.

Jews have never actively sought converts to Judaism because the Torah prescribes a righteous path for gentiles to follow, known as the "Seven Laws of Noah." Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these basic moral laws earns a proper place in heaven.

For further study of the Seven Laws of Noah:

The Seven Laws of Noah

7) BRINGING THE MESSIAH

Maimonides states that the popularity of Christianity (and Islam) is part of God’s plan to spread the ideals of Torah throughout the world. This moves society closer to a perfected state of morality and toward a greater understanding of God. All this is in preparation for the Messianic age.

Indeed, the world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. War and pollution threaten our planet; ego and confusion erode family life. To the extent we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent we will yearn for redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first questions a Jew is asked on Judgment Day is: "Did you yearn for the arrival of the Messiah?"

How can we hasten the coming of the Messiah? The best way is to love all humanity generously, to keep the mitzvot of the Torah (as best we can), and to encourage others to do so as well.

Despite the gloom, the world does seem headed toward redemption. One apparent sign is that the Jewish people have returned to the Land of Israel and made it bloom again. Additionally, a major movement is afoot of young Jews returning to Torah tradition.

The Messiah can come at any moment, and it all depends on our actions. God is ready when we are. For as King David says: "Redemption will come today—if you hearken to His voice."

Originally Posted by shemaantimissionary.tripod.com

Isaiah 52 & 53 - Not Prophecy for Jesus

There are two ways to interpret Isaiah 52 & 53. Both exclude Jesus as being the fulfillment of prophecy or scripture. One way is to interpret it as being non-messianic and an allegory about the nation of Israel. There is a strong basis for this because Isaiah does in fact identify the servant in question as being Israel - by name.

The other way is to interpret it as being messianic, in which case we would have to review if Jesus fulfilled all of the criteria listed within. He didn't, as we will see below.

The non-Messianic Route: Isaiah 52 & 53 are About Israel.

Isaiah 52:13 reads, "Indeed, my servant shall prosper, be exalted and raised to great heights."

Now, this is crucial! Isaiah identifies the servant multiple times as being Israel (See: Who Is the Suffering Servant?). For those who want to go sola scriptura, this should be enough to clearly demonstrate who the servant is.

Isaiah 41:8, "But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, seed of Abraham my friend"
Isaiah 44:1 "But hear, now, O Jacob My servant, Israel whom I have chosen!"
Isaiah 44:21 "Remember these things, O Jacob for you, O Israel, are My servant"
Isaiah 49:3 "And he said to me, "You are My servant, Israel in whom I glory.""

Because Isaiah identifies the servant previously as Israel we know that references to the servant (such as those found in Isaiah 52 & 53) are not references to Jesus.

The Messianic Route: Why Jesus Doesn't Fit.

Isaiah 52:14 states, “So marred was his appearance, unlike that of a man, his form, beyond human semblance”

Even though Jesus was whipped and crucified, his form was not marred beyond human semblance. He still resembled a human being, and his form was still like that of a man. Jesus doesn't fit.

Isaiah 53:4 states, “Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, our suffering that he endured, we accounted him plagued, smitten and affected by God.”

Isaiah 53:3 contains, “A man of suffering, familiar with disease.”

Isaiah 53:10 states, “But the Lord chose to crush him by disease”

Now, these passages tell us that the suffering servant being described was not only familiar with disease, but also afflicted with it, and crushed by it. It may be argued that Jesus was familiar with disease; however, he was not crushed by disease.

And no, disease does not mean sin or any other metaphorical interpretation. The historical context confirms this, early Jewish sources confirm this - it refers to leprosy.

"The Rabbis said: His name is 'the leper scholar,' as it is written, Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted." (Sanh. 98b)
Jesus was no leper. He wasn't smitten, afflicted, plagued, crushed by disease. Jesus doesn't fit.

Isaiah 53:10 also states, “That, if he made himself an offering for guilt, he might see offspring and have long life”

Jesus made a guilt offering? This is recorded nowhere. He had offspring? The gospels don't mention this, rather Christian tradition teaches that he had no wife or children. He had a long life? He lived to his mid-30s. Jesus just doesn't fit.

Allegory or Literal?

Allegory : the expression by means of symbolic fictional figures and actions of truths or generalizations about human existence; also : an instance (as in a story or painting) of such expression. (Merriam-Webster)

I know, the next thing Christians will argue is "Wait! Offspring isn't literal! Its a metaphor for followers of Jesus!" or "Disease isn't literal! Its a metaphor for sin!" (Even though ancient Jewish sources say otherwise about their own Jewish scriptures, see above). Lets see why Christian allegorical interpretation of Isaiah 52 and 53 doesn't work:

To start with, if the chapters are about Israel (as the Isaiah said it was), then it is allegorical by definition. Calling Israel a servant is an allegorical tactic and therefore we know the content surrounding it is going to be allegorical. If it is about a real, literal person (like Jesus), then there is no basis to draw any allegorical interpretation.

Further, Christians demonstrate a lack of consistency when giving their metaphorical interpretations. It just happens to become metaphor and allegory whenever Jesus doesn't fit! Here is an example:

Isaiah 53:7 "He was maltreated, yet he was submissive, he did not open his mouth; like a sheep being led to slaughter."

Oh yes! This is definitely literal! Jesus fits perfectly, its all about his trial. No metaphor or allegory here.

Isaiah 53:10 also states, “That, if he made himself an offering for guilt, he might see offspring and have long life”

This is metaphor and allegory! This doesn't refer to a guilt offering as outlined in the Torah, but rather his crucifixion as a guilt offering. And it doesn't refer to literal offspring, but rather to spiritual offspring. And his long life refers to his eternal life

See how that works? With this type of inconsistent and sloppy exegesis, we can make the chapters say anything and be about anything we want. In fact, a Chassidic Rabbi does exactly this by demonstrating how a rooster fulfills messianic prophecy.

When it really all comes down to it the only valid allegorical interpretation is one based on the allegory given by Isaiah - Israel as the servant. Jesus didn't fulfill any prophecies; rather Christians draw correlations between verses and fill in the gaps by crying "metaphor!", "allegory!", and "it doesn't mean what it says!" So no matter which route you take with Isaiah 52 & 53, if it is about Israel or the coming messiah, Jesus is excluded as being a valid option.

Originally Posted by Robert Price

We might as well consider Isaiah 52:13-15; 53:1-12 here; nothing in the text suggests any connection with the hope of a coming messiah, and it seems to have had nothing to do with birth or coronation oracles, it does represent an aspect of the royal ideology of the ancient Judean god-king, again, derived from the adjacent civilizations.

Originally Posted by Theodore Drange, Ph.D.

There is a Judaic interpretation of Isa 53 that seems plausible. The suffering servant is the nation of Israel which is represented by King Uzziah, who was its king in Isaiah's time and who died of leprosy. According to Shmuel Golding, Isaiah's message may have been: "Here is your leprous king, who is in type suffering under God's hand for you the backslidden servant nation of Israel" (which explains verse 6). Uzziah was taken away from the royal palace because of his affliction as a leper and spent his remaining years in isolation, which fits verse 8. Golding says the following:

Israel is portrayed as a suffering servant on account of its anointed leader being stricken with leprosy. Israel, like the leper, is a suffering servant of God. Both have suffered humiliation at the hand of their fellowmen: the leper because of his unsightly appearance; Israel through its defeat at the hands of the Babylonians. The gist of the message is that Israel like the leper has suffered, but nevertheless will retain its identity in the form of the exiled Jewish people and that they will prosper in this form. [5]

This interpretation of Isaiah 53 seems preferable to the Christian one because it does not suffer from drawbacks (1)-(6) mentioned above. It would also better explain the many changes of tense that occur in the chapter. And Israel is indeed referred to as "God's servant" (e.g., at Isa 49:3). However, the given interpretation does not make the chapter into a prophecy so much as an explanation of Israel's situation at around the time of Isaiah. At the very least, it shows, I think, that Isaiah 53 is not a clear example of a fulfilled prophecy (or set of fulfilled prophecies) in the Bible. So it is not any good support for premise (1) of the Argument from the Bible.