Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amlodhi · 07-05-2004, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Good point and not really harsh.

I'm glad you can accept it in the spirit in which it is offered. It is not my desire to berate you. However, since you are voluntarily posting on a public discussion forum, I feel I have your implied consent to try to make you aware of the impoverished state of your methodology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

You are suggesting that since there was no man formed as of yet God was worried that there would be no man to till his soil . . .

I never suggested that God was worried about anything and neither does the text. See? There's that eisegesis again. It'll lead you merrily down the wrong path virtually every time.

It's time to smell the coffee, Chili.

Amlodhi

Chili · 07-05-2004, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amlodhi

I never suggested that God was worried about anything and neither does the text. See? There's that eisegesis again. It'll lead you merrily down the wrong path virtually every time.

Amlodhi

But wait my dear Amlodhi, I forgot the punch line. "No rain upon the earth and no man to till the soil" foreshadows the fallen nature of man who would have to endure both sunshine and rain in a world wherein he is driven away from Eden while in pursuit of pleasure combined with the avoidance of pain (away from Eden is West). The river of life soon divides and the first two branches are what life will be like outside of Eden where the gold is good and pleasure and pain will be found (first river is pleasure and second river is pain).

No, I don't think God was really worried because even the plan of salvation was in place before the fall of man occured. This plan is depicted with the third and fourth river, of which the third river "rises" [back] in the East and the fourth river just is as in "I am." It is between these two rivers that the promised land is found and when we finally arrive at the Euphrates our prior God nature will have been restored as this is indicated by the name of that river (Eu=bright-phrates=mind).

Amlodhi · 07-05-2004, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

. . . when we finally arrive at the Euphrates our prior God nature will have been restored as this is indicated by the name of that river (Eu=bright-phrates=mind).

Actually, the name of the river as given in Genesis is פרת (p'rath) which means "bursting forth" or "rushing".

But I grow weary of this inanity. You have been led to water, but no one can force you to drink.

namaste'

Amlodhi

Chili · 07-06-2004, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amlodhi

But I grow weary of this inanity. You have been led to water, but no one can force you to drink.

namaste'

Amlodhi

It is a good thing I can swim because I think you are trying to drown me.

LP675 · 07-07-2004, 11:18 PM

This thread is freaking me out, especially the fact that Chili and highpriestess seem to actually understand each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Romans is a pastoral letter which points to Jesus Christ but the reality is that we must go throught he same events that Jesus did before we will be a Christ.

Just out of curiosity, what would you label the religion you believe in? (it doesn’t seem to be Christianity)

Vorkosigan · 07-08-2004, 01:37 AM

Nothing relevant to BCH here. Off to GRD.

Chili · 07-08-2004, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LP675

This thread is freaking me out, especially the fact that Chili and highpriestess seem to actually understand each other.

Just out of curiosity, what would you label the religion you believe in? (it doesn’t seem to be Christianity)

The Christianity you know is not a bone fide religion but just a freakshow in the theater of the absurd. In reality Christianity is the end of Catholicism (or that which wherein Catholicism reaches its climax) and the -ity suffix also indicates that it is a condition of being (as opposed to an -ism). Before Christianity can be a religion there would have to be temples in the New Jerusalem (churches in heaven) and would be conflict with the infallibility of the Catholic Church.

converted · 07-08-2004, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nice Squirrel

First, what is original sin? In my tradition (non-literal) it is the judging of things to be either "good" or "evil" (or more good/more evil) which all humans do naturally. (Hence the symbology of the two trees.) When humans no longer took the world "as it is" and began judging it is when we fell from a state of bliss. So in my belief system "Original Sin" is the sin of having subjective "morals". And since all humans judge things (good/bad) this sin is inescapable. (Unless you are the Buddha!)

Just a different viewpoint of the story/Original Sin.

God created us out of love. God's intent was to treat mankind as his children and have a loving relationship with them. His intent was much the same as parents wishing to have children.

God created our spirits in his image. Humans are not all powerful like God, but we have free will and the capacity to love, hate, show empathy,... In other words we are not perfect robots or puppets. Original sin in simple terms is this: Human's rebelled against God just like teenagers rebel against their parents. Adam and Eve were tempted "to become like God" by eating the apple. The serpent declared that they would become equivalent to God in knowledge of everything. Original sin is all about "selfishness of man". God created man and gave him free will and wanted to have a two way loving relationship. God placed one rule on them - Stay away from the one tree. Instead of obeying and being willing to live within God's one rule, they chose the selfish, me centered path.

The current me centered culture maps very well to original sin.

jdlongmire · 07-09-2004, 01:40 AM

...well...this is an interesting thread...

...if anybody is interested, here is a link to a good Reformed explaination of the effect of the Fall...linked from here

Quote:

The chief idea of federalism is that, when Adam sinned, he sinned for all of us. His fall was our fall. When God punished Adam by taking away his original righteousness, we were all likewise punished. The curse of the Fall affects us all. Not only was Adam destined to make his living by the sweat of his brow, but that is true for us as well. Not only was Eve consigned to have pain in childbirth, but that has been true for women of all human generations. The offending serpent in the garden was not the only member of his species who was cursed to crawl on his belly.

...

The federal view of the Fall still exudes a faint odor of tyranny Our cry is, “No damnation without representation!�? Just as people in a nation clamor for representatives to insure freedom from despotic tyranny, so we demand representation before God that is fair and just. The federal view states that we are judged guilty for Adam’s sin because he was our fair and just representative.

...

The assumption many of us make when we struggle with the Fall is that, had we been there, we would have made a different choice. We would not have made a decision that would plunge the world into ruin. Such an assumption is just not possible given the character of God. God doesn’t make mistakes. His choice of my representative is greater than my choice of my own.

...

One final illustration may be helpful here. We bristle at the idea that God calls us to be righteous when we are hampered by original sin. We say, “But God, we can’t be righteous. We are fallen creatures. How can you hold us accountable when you know very well we were born with original sin?�?

The illustration is as follows. Suppose God said to a man, “I want you to trim these bushes by three o’clock this afternoon. But be careful. There is a large open pit at the edge of the garden. If you fall into that pit, you will ‘not be able to get yourself out. So whatever you do, stay away from that pit.�?

Suppose that as soon as God leaves the garden the man runs over and jumps into the pit. At three o’clock God returns and finds the bushes untrimmed. He calls for the gardener and hears a faint cry from the edge of the garden. He walks to the edge of the pit and sees the gardener helplessly flailing around on the bottom. He says to the gardener, “Why haven’t you trimmed the bushes I told you to trim?�? The gardener responds in anger, “How do you expect me to trim these bushes when I am trapped in this pit? If you hadn’t left this empty pit here, I would not be in this predicament.�?

Adam jumped into the pit. In Adam we all jumped into the pit. God did not throw us into the pit. Adam was clearly warned about the pit. God told him to stay away. The consequences Adam experienced from being in the pit were a direct punishment for jumping into it.

...

etc...

jdlongmire · 07-09-2004, 07:47 AM

Folks, I have become aware that I am spending far too much time participating on this forum. One reason is I enjoy the dialogue and interplay. Another is because I like to try and (hopefully!!!) offer a moderate, doctrinally sound Christian opinion on the many disparate subjects brought up on this board.

Unfortunately, I am participating to a degree that I perceive that I am not giving enough attention to my family and church. Thus, I will be moving back to lurker status for awhile. Please accept my apologies if I have participated in this thread and have not responded to open questions or issues. Any particular questions/messages can be directed to me via email: jdlongmire@hotmail.com.

Soli Deo Gloria,

JD Longmire

P.S. Please note, no ellipsi!

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07-08-2004, 01:37 AM	#46
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Nothing relevant to BCH here. Off to GRD.

07-09-2004, 07:47 AM	#50
jdlongmire Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: American by birth, Southern by the grace of God! Posts: 2,657	Folks, I have become aware that I am spending far too much time participating on this forum. One reason is I enjoy the dialogue and interplay. Another is because I like to try and (hopefully!!!) offer a moderate, doctrinally sound Christian opinion on the many disparate subjects brought up on this board. Unfortunately, I am participating to a degree that I perceive that I am not giving enough attention to my family and church. Thus, I will be moving back to lurker status for awhile. Please accept my apologies if I have participated in this thread and have not responded to open questions or issues. Any particular questions/messages can be directed to me via email: jdlongmire@hotmail.com. Soli Deo Gloria, JD Longmire P.S. Please note, no ellipsi!

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