IBelieveInHymn

Archaeology
There is archaeological material that some Christian archaeologists, such as William F. Albright, have considered historical evidence of the Ten Plagues; for example, an ancient water-trough found in El Arish bears hieroglyphic markings detailing a period of darkness. Albright, and other Christian archaeologists have claimed that such evidence, as well as careful study of the areas ostensibly traveled by the Israelites after the Exodus, make discounting the biblical account untenable. However, their arguments have not persuaded many archaeologists.

The Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus describes a series of calamities befalling Egypt, including a river turned to blood, men behaving as wild ibises, and the land generally turned upside down. However, this is usually thought to describe a general and long term ecological disaster lasting for a period of decades, such as that which destroyed the Old Kingdom. The document is usually dated to the end of the Middle Kingdom, or more rarely, to its beginning, fitting the Old Kingdom destruction, but in both cases long before the usual theorized dates for the Exodus.

Immanuel Velikovsky decided that the Egyptian papyrus did, in fact, describe the events of Exodus, along with the major natural catastrophes that he thought preceded it; in his opinion[5] it was the conventional chronologies of Egypt that were wrong by several hundred years.


If you want the natural explanation on How God made it possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_of_Egypt

I don't know if it happened. I wasn't there.

There are many different arguments on this subject.

Johnny Skeptic

Message to IBIH: Have you read the Egyptian papyrus that you mentioned? If not, how can you comment on it?

temporalillusion

You go on about the plagues again.. I already pointed out to you once that the plagues aren't even logically consistent with each other, so they're impossible to prove.

Or are you unaware that according to the Bible all the cattle in Egypt were killed twice? The fifth plague killed all the livestock. Then the seventh plague killed all the livestock (again!). Oh, and then in the tenth plague, the firstborn among the livestock are killed for a third time.

If all the livestock in Egypt died (some 3 times!) I assume you have archeological evidence of a huge number of livestock being brought into Egypt to replenish them so everyone didn't die of starvation?

If the plagues aren't even consistent with each other, they'd be impossible to prove.

Yet last time I brought this up you didn't even respond.. maybe this time?

Maybe you could respond to my other questions as well? Still don't have a good definition of good vs. evil as compared to right vs. wrong, and how to tell if something is one or the other.

IBelieveInHymn

Yes, it mentions a plague that predates the book of Exodus, but that can be an entirely different story and plague. Why are plagues so popular in Egypt?

Johnny Skeptic

If the papyrus "can be an entirely different story and plague," why did you use it as evidence?

Do you have a copy of the papyrus, or did you find it at the Internet? If the latter, where at the Internet?

Are you aware that if a God exists, if he wanted to, he could easily convince at least 60% of the people in the world that he exists, to admire him, and to become his followers?

WVIncagold

You should actually try and read things before you post such nonsense. The Egyptian Ipuwer papyrus is a poem that is a beleived by authorities who actually study this stuff to be a COPY of a earlier work in the middle kingdom but has been dated to (ca. 1850 BCE - 1600 BCE) source wikipedia. Morever the association of Ipuwer with the Exodus is generally rejected by Egyptologists (you know those guys who study this stuff for a living) and is only linked by people like you who desperatly need something to cling to in order to substatiate your belief. People like you have cited that the Exodus took place during Ramses II 1279 bce to 1213 bce despite the total lack of evidence that it happened. The poem was written long before the exodus so how could it tell of things happening in the here and now when those things didnt happen until long after? Also if you say it is prophetic then you give credence to the gods who gave the propehcy (hint it aint your god) so be carefull. Rivers of blood by the way is not a unique term and is found throught bronze age relgions.

Oh well he decided did he? well lets all bow to Immanuel Velikovsky. Big Whoopediedo!
Just a little bit on Immanuel Velikovsky. taken from wikepdia "His ideas have been almost entirely rejected by mainstream academia (often vociferously so) and his work is generally regarded as erroneous in all its detailed conclusions. Moreover, scholars view his unorthodox methodology (for example, using comparative mythology to derive scenarios in celestial mechanics) as an unacceptable way to arrive at conclusions." In other words his work has been found to be bullshit. source wikepedia.
the physics were considered Absurd to put it mildly.

One you should be asking is how much bread and quail would be needed to ensure the people of the exodus to maintian their health. Remember according to the bible god provided mana (interpreted to be bread) and quail for his people during the exodus. Now given the extreme conditions and the caloric intake of a person daily for 603,550 people (fighting men this does not include women and children or animals). base on a is a 2000 calorie dietper day. do the numbers. I have and you will be suprised to the amount of bread needed and quail. Not to mention the route would have been littered with feces and waste abundant since at any given point irt would take 51 days for the begining of a 10 abreast march to pass you from begining to end. 2.5 million people marching ten abreast would form a line 150 miles long, without accounting for livestock. The desert area could not support that many people even iff god sent 5 quail a day and baked half a loaf a bread a day for just the fighting men.

semiopen

The most convincing evidence I've seen for the existence of God is that Cheney shot his friend (quail shooting) the Saturday that the Quail Parsha was read in the synagogue. Beshalach - Exodus 13:-17 17:16

Exodus 16

WVIncagold

Dew must of been the hebrew/greek/aramaic (since IBIH cant seam to decide what language is used) word for birdshit. :rolling: because that many quail you better be inside a tent.

badger3k

The Papyrus comes from a writing believed to have been made somewhere before 2000 BCE, probably closer to 3000 BCE, from earlier legends. Nowhere anywhere close to the time of the supposed captivity.

You really didn't use the crank Velikovsky? Seriously? Dude, really, if you think that moron has any credibility outside of idiots, you need to sit down. It'll be a shock, but he has nothing. He has been wrong on so many things, I'm not sure he could even spell his name correctly. Wow.

It wasn't you posting things from Graham Hancock in another thread, was it?

Try looking for Higgaion, and read his deconstruction and debunking of that horrible Exodus Decoded crap by that hack pseudoarchaeologist Jacobovici. I can't put up a link since my work blocks that site. Maybe someone else can? Phil Plait at Bad Astonomy (I think) has a good takedown of Velikovsky (if not him, then there are others you can find that demolish his ideas and show how horribly wrong they are).

Albright, well, he comes from a time when archaeology was being used, even if not justified, to prove the bible. I think he's backed off from that a bit, but his early work is filled with unjustified assumptions (from what I have read, mainly from more recent scholarly work). I'd be skeptical of using him as a source for trying to prove the bible, even though he was a great archaeologist in some ways (just that he, as others, seem to find what they are looking for, rather than looking for whatever they might find).

badger3k

Was it back then? I thought it was thought to stem from earlier (although, now that I think about it, it seemed to refer to a time between dynastys where there was general chaos, so maybe I am thinking of something else.) It's a shame I can't bring my library to school with me or else I could look it up.