Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Grog · 05-07-2012, 09:29 AM

This is where there could be a breakthrough in Jesus Studies:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0306131640.htm

" In ancient Israel, people also left behind small traces of their lives -- although discussion of belief systems, personal appeals to God, and hopes for the future are more prevalent than the sexual innuendo that adorns the walls of Pompeii."

The first volume of this work is already published and include material from the first century. Graffiti from the early first century about Jesus of Nazareth would be good evidence for an historical Jesus. Is it likely to be found? the chances aren't great, but IF it were, it would dramatically change what we think and know.

I predict that we won't. Or if we do, it won't point toward an historical event under Pilate. But who knows?

Has anybody looked at this work?

outhouse · 05-07-2012, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

This is where there could be a breakthrough in Jesus Studies:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0306131640.htm

" In ancient Israel, people also left behind small traces of their lives -- although discussion of belief systems, personal appeals to God, and hopes for the future are more prevalent than the sexual innuendo that adorns the walls of Pompeii."

The first volume of this work is already published and include material from the first century. Graffiti from the early first century about Jesus of Nazareth would be good evidence for an historical Jesus. Is it likely to be found? the chances aren't great, but IF it were, it would dramatically change what we think and know.

I predict that we won't. Or if we do, it won't point toward an historical event under Pilate. But who knows?

Has anybody looked at this work?

If anything would be found it would be late first century at the earliest, and wouldnt be of much help over the evidence we have now.

The movement started out so small at the time of his death when he was nothing but a traveling peasant teacher/healer in a sea of thousands like him, that the odds of anything within judaism would be pretty much a impossibility.

and if it was roman god-fearer's, were already later then paul

the really good evidence would be a ten year window before paul hunted down and started exterminating the original movement, and the original apostles were all illiterate with possibly Matthew being able to write a little.

Grog · 05-07-2012, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

This is where there could be a breakthrough in Jesus Studies:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0306131640.htm

" In ancient Israel, people also left behind small traces of their lives -- although discussion of belief systems, personal appeals to God, and hopes for the future are more prevalent than the sexual innuendo that adorns the walls of Pompeii."

The first volume of this work is already published and include material from the first century. Graffiti from the early first century about Jesus of Nazareth would be good evidence for an historical Jesus. Is it likely to be found? the chances aren't great, but IF it were, it would dramatically change what we think and know.

I predict that we won't. Or if we do, it won't point toward an historical event under Pilate. But who knows?

Has anybody looked at this work?

If anything would be found it would be late first century at the earliest, and wouldnt be of much help over the evidence we have now.

The movement started out so small at the time of his death when he was nothing but a traveling peasant teacher/healer in a sea of thousands like him, that the odds of anything within judaism would be pretty much a impossibility.

and if it was roman god-fearer's, were already later then paul

the really good evidence would be a ten year window before paul hunted down and started exterminating the original movement, and the original apostles were all illiterate with possibly Matthew being able to write a little.

Evidence suggests that early christians were literate. For example, Paul wrote them letters.

Juststeve · 05-07-2012, 12:50 PM

Grog:

For Paul's letters to reach his intended audience there would only need to be one literate person per congregation to read the letters aloud. Even that would not require full literacy including the ability to write letters in response.

If indeed most first century Christians were literate they would be outliers given the conclusions of secular historians concerning literacy in the first century.

Steve

Toto · 05-07-2012, 01:11 PM

There is a related thread here:

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=310784

Quote:

Invisible Romans (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Robert Knapp

The author, a classicist, uses original sources including the New Testament to describe the social history of the non-elite classes in the Roman Empire.

Quote:

What survives from the Roman Empire is largely the words and lives of the rich and powerful: emperors, philosophers, senators. Yet the privilege and decadence often associated with the Roman elite was underpinned by the toils and tribulations of the common citizens. Here, the eminent historian Robert Knapp brings those invisible inhabitants of Rome and its vast empire to light.

He seeks out the ordinary folk—laboring men, housewives, prostitutes, freedmen, slaves, soldiers, and gladiators—who formed the backbone of the ancient Roman world, and the outlaws and pirates who lay beyond it. He finds their traces in the nooks and crannies of the histories, treatises, plays, and poetry created by the elite. Everyday people come alive through original sources as varied as graffiti, incantations, magical texts, proverbs, fables, astrological writings, and even the New Testament.

Grog · 05-07-2012, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

Grog:

For Paul's letters to reach his intended audience there would only need to be one literate person per congregation to read the letters aloud. Even that would not require full literacy including the ability to write letters in response.

If indeed most first century Christians were literate they would be outliers given the conclusions of secular historians concerning literacy in the first century.

Steve

Quote:

Originally Posted by NPR

Price describes the graffiti as "a spontaneous verbal outburst" that adds intimacy to the historical record of the ancient Levant and Mesopotamia.

"These cultures wrote everything," he says. "They recorded their personal lives, their public lives; empires recorded themselves. They were hyperlinguistic."

Here's a link

and another

Toto · 05-07-2012, 01:19 PM

There are periodic attempts to claim that some of the graffiti in Pompeii are hidden Christian symbols, but these are not convincing to most observers. There's a thread on that here that references some archived threads.

The graffiti one might expect would be the Christian fish symbol, which would still be ambiguous.

Grog · 05-07-2012, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There are periodic attempts to claim that some of the graffiti in Pompeii are hidden Christian symbols, but these are not convincing to most observers. There's a thread on that here that references some archived threads.

The graffiti one might expect would be the Christian fish symbol, which would still be ambiguous.

It seems like the articles I am referring to is concerning more recent work, I could be wrong though. It sounded like a fairly thorough catalog of first century graffiti. That would be interesting. There should be Christian graffiti, but the nature of it should be interesting.

la70119 · 05-07-2012, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There are periodic attempts to claim that some of the graffiti in Pompeii are hidden Christian symbols, but these are not convincing to most observers. There's a thread on that here that references some archived threads.

Yes, I had started a cautious one myself. The OP has an apologist's vid that discusses the "Christianos" graffito, a curse graffito, two sator squares (one with a fish) and a bizaare cross or tropaeum with a Club of Hercules for the upright.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The graffiti one might expect would be the Christian fish symbol, which would still be ambiguous.

Ditto, the anchor. Roman anchors were cruciform.

Roman anchor link here and here.

And the fish with the anchor as a stand-in for the cross here and here. What is curious about this one is that the imagery on either side is apparently neither Xtian nor Jewish, with the image off to the right possibly showing a nude male with a rather large full monty.

James The Least · 05-07-2012, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grog

This is where there could be a breakthrough in Jesus Studies:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0306131640.htm

" In ancient Israel, people also left behind small traces of their lives -- although discussion of belief systems, personal appeals to God, and hopes for the future are more prevalent than the sexual innuendo that adorns the walls of Pompeii."

The first volume of this work is already published and include material from the first century. Graffiti from the early first century about Jesus of Nazareth would be good evidence for an historical Jesus. Is it likely to be found? the chances aren't great, but IF it were, it would dramatically change what we think and know.

I predict that we won't. Or if we do, it won't point toward an historical event under Pilate. But who knows?

Has anybody looked at this work?

Wow! NINE volumes? This is a major work of historical recovery.

05-07-2012, 09:29 AM	#1
Grog Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Oregon Posts: 738	Graffiti May Provide Evidence This is where there could be a breakthrough in Jesus Studies: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0306131640.htm " In ancient Israel, people also left behind small traces of their lives -- although discussion of belief systems, personal appeals to God, and hopes for the future are more prevalent than the sexual innuendo that adorns the walls of Pompeii." The first volume of this work is already published and include material from the first century. Graffiti from the early first century about Jesus of Nazareth would be good evidence for an historical Jesus. Is it likely to be found? the chances aren't great, but IF it were, it would dramatically change what we think and know. I predict that we won't. Or if we do, it won't point toward an historical event under Pilate. But who knows? Has anybody looked at this work?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-07-2012, 12:50 PM	#4
Juststeve Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Dallas Texas Posts: 758	Grog: For Paul's letters to reach his intended audience there would only need to be one literate person per congregation to read the letters aloud. Even that would not require full literacy including the ability to write letters in response. If indeed most first century Christians were literate they would be outliers given the conclusions of secular historians concerning literacy in the first century. Steve

05-07-2012, 01:19 PM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There are periodic attempts to claim that some of the graffiti in Pompeii are hidden Christian symbols, but these are not convincing to most observers. There's a thread on that here that references some archived threads. The graffiti one might expect would be the Christian fish symbol, which would still be ambiguous.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.