aa5874

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_(logic)

The Belief today that there was an HJ is based ONLY on WRITTEN sources and NOT on an actual human Jesus.

HJers cannot show that the sources with the Jesus character in the same written sources were NOT also derived from earlier written sources or oral sources WITHOUT an actual human Jesus.

In effect, HJers are attempting to prove exactly what they argue against. The BELIEF that Jesus did exist can be derived WITHOUT an actual human Jesus.

HJers BELIEVE HJ did exist because of information in the NT without ever seeing an HJ.

Christians of antiquity did the very same thing. NO author of the Jesus story claimed to have seen an actual human Jesus and NO text of antiquity have been found and dated to the 1st century.

So unless HJers can find a credible eyewitness to an HJ then their Belief that there was an HJ BASED SOLELY on written sources is a CATCH 22.

aa5874

The HJ argument is NOW finally EXPOSED as worthless based on the present available evidence.

1. HJers today BELIEVE Jesus did exist based SOLELY on what they have read and heard.

2. HJers today will NOT ever encounter a real human Jesus.

3. HJers fundamentally BELIEVE the Jesus story in the Canon 1800 years later.

Catch 22--people of antiquity did the very same thing.

They merely BELIEVED Jesus existed in the 2nd century based on what they read and heard without ever seeing an actual human Jesus.

The HJ argument is FINALLY done.

Once people today can BELIEVE Jesus did exist based only on written and oral sources then it can be argued that the very same thing have happened in antiquity.

There is NO DATED evidence of any source that personally met or interacted with Jesus in the time of Pilate.

From the 2nd -21st century ALL claims that Jesus did exist is based on Written and Oral sources.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...stament_papyri

HJers are attempting to PROVE that an actual human Jesus is really NOT needed to BELIEVE Jesus did exist--they only need to BELIEVE Jesus stories written 1800 years ago.

Toto

This is not Catch-22. You don't understand the concept.

You, sir, are no Kurt Vonnegut.

aa5874

You don't really seem to know what you are talking about. You need to get familiar with the TERM "Catch 22".

I am surprised and taken a back of your lack of familiarity and application of the the term "Catch 22".

Please see http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-catch-22.htm

The HJ argument is a Logical Conundrum where the HJer is Trapped in a circular logic paradigm with NO way out.

HJers are attempting to PROVE Jesus existed based ONLY on what they have heard and read and in so doing they will show that people of antiquity did the SAME thing.

Classic Catch 22.

The HJ argument has FINALLY been shown to be a Logical Conundrum with NO way out.

tanya

Holy Cow, you two have both missed the boat....

Kurt Vonnegut????

Nope.

Joseph Heller:

This really, in my opinion, has nothing to do with the concept of relying upon the gospels as evidence of an historical Jesus of Nazareth.

As best as I have been able to determine, this is a matter of faith, not logic.

Either one believes in gods, demons, angels, and the like, or one does not....It is a simple choice, no one is compelled to do anything. Maybe in yesteryear, Christianity cut off one's head for refusing to accept the idea of a divine Jesus, but today, things are more calm. The muslims still throw acid in the eyes of young girls, because, in the best tradition of Judaism, they believe the nonsense about gender inequality, found in the writings of the old testament, including the bit about females having been derived from males, so they, like the jews, wish to keep the females segregated, and focused on reproduction of more males.

Since the issue of the credibility of the gospels, is faith based, then, there is no catch-22. The true believers' logic is not circular. They believe that the documents were inspired by the hand of God. Who are we to dispute that? Obviously, I don't buy that crap, but, I am unable to prove that there is no divine creature supervising planet earth. For those many folks, who accept the concept of supernatural divinity, there is no "catch-22". In their view, the gospels represent a simple road map, leading to paradise if we follow one route, and leading to hades, if the contrary.

That was not the case in the original formulation by Joseph Heller. Heller's example showed "damned if I do, and damned if I don't". The analogy then, in the minds of those who believe in gods, demons, angels and the like, is "to paradise if I do, else, damned if I don't".

Toto

You're right - Vonnegut had a similar appreciation for the absurdity of war, but Heller gave us Catch-22.

In any case, which there may be some circular logic in apologists'' arguments, there is no catch. There is no tragic absurdity.

aeebee50

I am with you Toto.

Yellum Notnef

I don't know the technical definition of a catch-22 but in this case I wouldn't be so quick to discount words like "tragic" and "absurdity".

aa5874

Please, please, please!!! The term "Catch 22" is now used in the English Language and has a generally accepted meaning regardless of who initiated the term "Catch 22".

Please, when I used the term "Catch 22" I am NOT referring to Kurt Vonnegut or Joseph Heller.

Catch 22 in English refers to a Logical conundrum where there is NO way out.

We can SEARCH the Entire Internet and we see EXAMPLES of how the term Catch 22 is used in the ENGLISH Language.

Please see http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-catch-22.htm

HJers BELIEVE Jesus existed based on what they have read or heard without ever seeing an actual human Jesus and this is EXACTLY what happened in antiquity.

All the sources of antiquity that mentioned Jesus did NOT CLAIM they pesonally met or saw Jesus.

The same Canon which HJers BELIEVE was derived from stories people heard or read about Jesus.

The HJ argument is a Logical conundrum with NO way out--a Catch 22.

Toto

But there is no tragedy here, and there are several simple solutions.

No one forces you to believe in a historical Jesus, and there are no tragic consequences for either believing or not believing that such a historical person existed.

You will not be forced to go on a suicidal mission whichever choice you make.