Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Layman · 10-26-2003, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO
Perhaps Layman can tell us where the Bible speaks of a "Spirit" (or soul, call it what you want) which survives the death of the body.

The fact is that he wont be able to come up with anything.

Phi 1:21-24:

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

2Co 12:2-4:

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Quote:

The truth is that the very idea of the resurrection of the body denies the existing of anything which can live without the body.

What a silly idea. The Jews in Paul's time that believed in bodily resurrection had no problem believing in an intermediate state as well. As I cited above:

Quote:

I direct you to the actual words he himself wrote on pages 140 to 146 of his book.

He cites Jewish source such as the Pseudo-Phocylides:

"We humans live not a long time but for a seaon. But our sol is immortal and lives ageless forever."

But the Testament of Abraham focuses on thie immortal spirit:

"The spirits of those who died in righteousness shall live and rejoice; their spirits shall not perish, nor their memorial from before the face of the Great One."

Hence Wright's comment:

"The idea of a soul separable from the body, with different theories as to what might happen to it thereafter, was widespread in the varied Judaisms of the turn of the eras."

Wright, at 142.

truelies · 10-26-2003, 08:41 AM

The good Bishop should refrain from speaking for other than himself. He also might consider moving into a new line of work for which he is better suited.

Layman · 10-26-2003, 09:00 AM

Forgot about this one:

Quote:

"Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

Luk 16:22-25

NOGO · 10-26-2003, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Layman

Phi 1:21-24:

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

This is mistranslated.
What Paul is saying is that he can either die or live but what he prefers is the moment when he will be transformed and be with Jesus at the end of the world.

You want proof ... here it is.

1 Thess 4
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The issue of who precedes who is irrelevant if people who die in Jesus go directly to him as you imply Phi 1:21-24 is saying.

Note the text in bold. What Paul is saying is that those who are dead with be reunited with Jesus at the same time as the ones living and not after. The living will be not have some kind of advantage over the dead.

What you claim is that the dead have this advantage.
Clearly Paul does not think so.

I will come back to the translation of Phi 1:21-24

Doctor X · 10-26-2003, 12:26 PM

Ah . . . here it is:

Quote:

7 Saul then said to his attendants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, so I may go and inquire of her." "There is one in Endor," they said. 8 So Saul disguised himself, putting on other clothes, and at night he and two men went to the woman. "Consult a spirit for me," he said, "and bring up for me the one I name." 9 But the woman said to him, "Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?" 10 Saul swore to her by the LORD , "As surely as the LORD lives, you will not be punished for this." 11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" "Bring up Samuel," he said. 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!" 13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a spirit [1] coming up out of the ground." 14 "What does he look like?" he asked."An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."

[1.] 28:13 Or see spirits ; or see gods

1 Samuel 28: 7-15

--J.D.

NOGO · 10-26-2003, 01:49 PM

Quote:

2Co 12:2-4:

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

Paul does not seem to be sure, body or no body!
... not exactly a well established Christian concept.

I agree that the concept was around at the time of Paul. In the Jewish Wars Josephus tells us that there are Buddhist monks teaching in the region, so the idea of a soul outside the body was definitely part of the mix of ideas going around.

Even if we accept this on its face value the question is this. Was Paul talking about what happens to all Christians after they die or was he talking about an exceptional case.

2 Cor 12:5
On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.

It sounds like an exceptional case to me.

In conclusion I would say that the idea of a disembodied soul was not unknown to Paul but that the concept was in its infancy within Christianity and therefore not reflected in most Christian beliefs of the time and certainly outweighed by many other things that Paul and others say.

NOGO · 10-26-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

1 Samuel 28
"I see a spirit coming up out of the ground." "What does he look like?"

This does not in itself prove that there was a well established belief in disembodied spirits or souls in the modern Christian sense.

Odysseus went down to hades to talk to his mother and one of his men who had just recently died.

Hades or Sheol was where everybody went, good and bad.

Job 14
From Sheol
"His sons achieve honor, but he does not know it;
Or they become insignificant, but he does not perceive it.

Ecc 9
3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead.
4 For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything,
...
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.

Doctor X · 10-26-2003, 02:53 PM

NOGO:

Indeed, I did not intend to argue that the "modern Christian sense" of souls existed then; I responded to a claim that:

Quote:

The immortality of the soul is a deceptive lie brought down thru the ages from pagan tradtion which has no Biblical support.

Jim's contention seemed rather absolute. If he was arguing that the "immortality of the soul" as in the "modern Christian sense," I would agree; however, the "modern Christian sense" was not a pagan one either.

--J.D.

Jim Larmore · 10-27-2003, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
NOGO:

Jim's contention seemed rather absolute. If he was arguing that the "immortality of the soul" as in the "modern Christian sense," I would agree; however, the "modern Christian sense" was not a pagan one either.

--J.D.

I disagree, I think I can show that the Immortality of the soul was definitely something that originated from the lie brought in by satan thru the serpent in the garden of eden and was primarily passed thru the ages but was embraced by pagan teachings as far back as Babylon and later in the rights of Osiris.

Dr.X, its nice to debate you again, I enjoy reading your posts and laughing at your "alter ego" ( hes quite a nut sometimes ) even though you ipse dixit me every now and then. I know I deserve it because I don't formally prove my statements by evidence or references. I don't have my library here with me at this computer so its kinda hard sometimes to back up what I say.

An ipse dixit is better than a non sequitur anytime

Steven Carr · 10-27-2003, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim Larmore
I disagree, I think I can show that the Immortality of the soul was definitely something that originated from the lie brought in by satan thru the serpent in the garden of eden and was primarily passed thru the ages but was embraced by pagan teachings as far back as Babylon and later in the rights of Osiris.

Before you do that, could you find some of these sceptics in 1960 or 1961 who denied that Pontius Pilate existed?

Did any Jews believe in the immortality of the soul?

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10-26-2003, 08:41 AM	#22
truelies Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Kansas Posts: 529	The good Bishop should refrain from speaking for other than himself. He also might consider moving into a new line of work for which he is better suited.

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