Steven Carr

http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk/0...name_page.html

http://www.theway.co.uk/news/showcnews.php?news_id=1361

'ONE of the most senior bishops in the Church of England has argued that people do not have immortal souls and that after death they go to a form of 'restful happiness' rather than the Heaven depicted in much of Christian tradition.

So what exactly goes to a form of 'restful happiness' if there is no such thing as an immortal soul?

Is it the body? No.

Is it the soul? No.

And when Moses appeared he was 'conscious but peaceful', but had no body and no soul....

Presumably it is a hologram or something....

Layman

You could save us all a lot of time by actually reading Wright's book.

Wright affirms that the Christian spirit is conscious and aware and with Christ in the intermediate state. Whether he wants to describe that conscios and aware part of ourselves and "immortal soul" seems quite irrelevant.

Steven Carr

Layman continues with the word games.

'Resurrection' means this. 'Afterlife' means that. 'Spiritual' means the other....

But when it comes to saying what exactly Moses had, and what this intermediate state might be called, all of a sudden the term for it does not matter. You can call it whatever you want.

Why then can Wright not bring himself to call it an immortal soul? What name does he use for it?

What is the difference between 'the Christian spirit' and an 'immortal soul'?

Is it a distinction without a difference?

Is there any difference? Or does Wright simply think it theologically incorrect (by analogy with politically incorrect) to call 'the Christian spirit' an 'immortal soul'? Perhaps we should just say that these 'spirits' are 'physically challenged'?

If, when Moses appeared, the disciples did not see a resurrected body, and did not see an immortal soul, then what DID they see?

LAYMAN
'Wright affirms that the Christian spirit is conscious and aware and with Christ in the intermediate state.'

CARR
How can this be when they will only be judged much later?

How can they go to Christ, when there ultimate fate has not yet been decided?

Layman

It is not a game to undrestand the meaning and significance of the terms used by the people we are trying to understand.

This is no rebuttal.

That's just it. I do not know that Wright could not bring himself to call it an immortal soul. What is your reference for this?

An intermediate state of consciosness and awareness.

I think that's the difficulty here. These English terms are very loaded.

Depends on who you ask.

Like I said. I have yet to see Wright deny that people have souls.

Perhaps they saw whatever form the human takes while in the intermediate state.

Because according to Paul believers will immediately depart to be in that intermediate state upon their death.

Their fate was decided by their faith.

Layman

One reason I'm reluctant to accept your unsupported assertion that Paul does not believe in the "immortal soul" on its face is because when Paul describes the befliefs of the Pharisees in an intermediate state, he frequently uses the term "soul."

I direct you to the actual words he himself wrote on pages 140 to 146 of his book.

He cites Jewish source such as the Pseudo-Phocylides:

"We humans live not a long time but for a seaon. But our sol is immortal and lives ageless forever."

But the Testament of Abraham focuses on thie immortal spirit:

"The spirits of those who died in righteousness shall live and rejoice; their spirits shall not perish, nor their memorial from before the face of the Great One."

Hence Wright's comment:

"The idea of a soul separable from the body, with different theories as to what might happen to it thereafter, was widespread in the varied Judaisms of the turn of the eras."

Wright, at 142.

I have read Wright's book all the way through and revisited it many times in our discussion. Moreover, it seems doubtful that the source you cite to--like yourself--had a chance to read it as well (at least in it's final form).

The closet statement I have found to Paul denying an "immortal soul" is actually just Paul denying the Platonic version of such a soul.

"The pysche is not to be thought of as the Platonic immortal soul, the 'real' part of an otherwise unfortunately 'material' human being, the part that will last, will gloirously survive the longed-for death of the corruptible body, and wsill then fly free to the Isles of the Blessed or whatever."

Wright, at 282-83.

Steven Carr

WRIGHT
'"The pysche is not to be thought of as the Platonic immortal soul, the 'real' part of an otherwise unfortunately 'material' human being, the part that will last, will gloirously survive the longed-for death of the corruptible body, and wsill then fly free to the Isles of the Blessed or whatever."

CARR
Another death by a thousand qualifications.

Presumably if just one of those qualifications does not apply to Wright's definition of a 'psyche' , then he will deny that there is any similarity whatever between the Christian concept of something which lives on after death, in a non-physical form, never to die, and the concept of an 'immortal soul'.

At 7.99 pounds for 96 pages, I shall not be buying the book.

What is the difference between a psyche which never dies and a soul which never dies?

And how did the disciples see the psyche of Moses at the Transfiguration?

Layman

Presumptions are all you have since you refuse to read his book.

96 pages? The book is more than 700 pages long.

[Edit: Hmm, apparently the UK version is listed as exceeding 800 pages]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...590914-1764657

Besides, it's widely available in the states at the local libraries. Surely such an important work from the Bishop of Durham is also available by loan in the Isles.

Where did Wright say there was a difference?

I do not know all the ways in which the supernatural works. Why is that relevant?

Roger Pearse

In his case, of course, he's probably right. After all, if you sell your soul for a salary, a pension, and a public platform, what do you have left?

I thought the devil usually gave you more for your soul than that, but perhaps his wasn't worth all that much. I'm not selling out for anything that doesn't involve dancing girls at the very least!

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Steven Carr

Wrong book. Wright writes a LOT of books. I'm talking about his latest book, which you clearly haven't read yet.

The 'Resurrection' book has a FOG index which is extremely high.

Why go through all that dense verbiage when apparently all the words have special Wright-meanings.

As for Wright claiming there was a difference between a psyche and a soul, I refer you to the articles in the opening post, which report Wright denying people have an immortal soul. Apparently they have an immortal psyche. There must be SOME difference.

'He does not believe that every human being comes equipped with an immortal soul.'

So Heaven (and Wright) knows what Moses appeared with. A disembodied, conscious and peaceful psyche, which has nothing to do with a soul. What on Earth is that?

Still, dead prophets appear in the New Testament, returned from the grave, the disciples see them, and somewhere in one of Wright's many, volumnous books, he argues that the idea of somebody returning to Earth from the grave, never to die again. was unprecedented.

Pity he missed the reference to Moses returning to Earth from the grave, never to die again.

Jim Larmore

I hate to sound simplistic here but we can really get involved in something that is intractable.

If we take the Bible at its word we see that in Gen2:7 that it takes two things to make a soul. A body and the breath of life. If one is removed you can't have a soul. The Bible never says anywhere that a soul is immortal, this bishop has it right Biblically. James 2:26 says the body without the spirit is dead. In the greek the word for spirit is pneumos or breath, in the Hebrew most of the time when it says spirit the word is "Ruach" or breath. Eccl.12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was and the spirit (Ruach or breath) shall return to God who gave it. It even says in Job27:3 "The spirit of God ( Ruach) is in my nostrils".
In Ezek18:20 it says the soul that sinneth it shall die, so we know that souls die from this verse alone but there are many more. Ecc 9:5 "The living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything". Jesus called death a sleep when He was about to resurrect Lazarus. when His disciples asked Lord if he sleeps he do well, then Jesus plainly told them Lazarus is dead. The soul is nothing more than the miraculous gift of the breath of life given by God and a body. When God created man, when the construction was finished the body was lying there on the ground dead as any dead man is now, until God breathed into his notrils the breath of life, then he became a living soul.

We can ask ourselves well what about all these ghosts and sightings of Mary, etc.? In Rev16:14 its says that spirits of devils or fallen angels can do miracles and create wonders or appear as departed loved ones if they wanted.

Another thing it really doens't make any sense if your a christian to believe in the 2nd comming of Christ where the Bible says He will resurrect all the dead in Christ if they were already with Him in heaven.

The immortality of the soul is a deceptive lie brought down thru the ages from pagan tradtion which has no Biblical support.