Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chili · 09-10-2004, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

How about this: Five for the five books of Moses, twelve for the twelve tribes, seven for the good that came of this. All (now including the Gentiles--Jesus broke and blessed bread without the priest, meaning the priest and subsequently the old covenant was now superfluous) were fed from five books, but there was still a basket left for each tribe.

I have no problem with that because the 5 books of Moses were the faith that went out of array and sought understanding. The twelve tribes are the apostles and the seven is the good that came out of it.

And yes, Jesus broke the bread and the OT became superfluous through understanding.

Quote:

Why is your reading more likely? And how do we know that both of us aren't guilty of purest eisegesis?

Nobody said mine was better and I don't even think that eisegisis is wrong if it leads to the next step and that is exactly what Jesus was doing here. Just trying to make sense of it all.

Chili · 09-10-2004, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wily Coyote

You can seek out a mystical, deep philosophical meaning in the numbers themselves, 5, 7, and 12 being famously mystical "good luck" numbers, but for me the numbers themselves are only significant in terms of the fact they're greater than the original amounts.

Well just look at the number 5 and see how it shows that the faith we once had when we first decided to do it our own way in the number 2 has been turned upside down. The reason for this was all the 'loose ends' we created in the world as it is indicated by the shape of the number 4, and now here, in the number 7, we try it again (our second go around that finds completion in the number 8) but this time we do it after the image of God so we can someday walk side by side with God as in the number 11.

Toto · 09-10-2004, 12:03 PM

There is a CrossTalk thread on this from 1998, starting with a post by Jan Sammer here. Sammer makes some assertions about the capacity of the baskets which may be dubioius, according to a later post.

Yuri Kuchinsky seems to have a low opinion of Sammer's theories (the fish were "magic sushi"?

)

Another poster (E Bruce Brooks) refers to the theories of Farrer here

Quote:

. . . Farrer builds much of his argument in this book around the claimed structural centrality of the [Tyrian] Woman, supposed to represent the Mission to the Gentiles. I have counterproposed that removing the Tyrian Woman from the text solves more problems than it creates, but manifestly it was present at some stage in the history of GMk, and it is fair to describe the structure of the narrative as of that stage (finessing the question of whether we are describing the intent of the author or that of the interpolator, or whether those were in fact the same person at different times, etc etc). In Farrer's view, the baskets of leftovers represent what is available for future feedings, not excluding the "dogs" [Gentiles] who eat the "crumbs" [leftovers] from the table of the children [of Israel]. He accepts the inevitable symbolism of 12 = Israel, both for the disciples (who, he notes, have at the beginning of the first feeding miracle just returned from their mission) and for the baskets and the leftovers they contain.

He is concerned to show that the second miracle is not a variant of the first, naively accepted by a Markan conflator, but that both are authorially intentional, and that the first is narratively (in terms of his argument, symbolically) incomplete without the second, hence his emphasis on the sum of the loaves in the two cases (5 plus 7) being the sought-for complete 12 (enough, assuming miraculous multiplication, to feed all Israel). Farrer is clear (p67) that, after feeding the first 5,000, a symbolic 7,000 remain to be fed if all Israel is to be provided for. The second miracle only involves 4,000; I am not sure I can figure out in the time available to me how F resolves this. . . . on p75 he is still asking why the ratio in the second feeding was not 4 loaves to 4 thousand, leaving a final miracle of 3 loaves for 3 thousand . . .

There should be a follow up post expanding on this, but I can't seem to locate it. Is there a better way of searching CrossTalk than on yahoogroups?

Brother Daniel · 09-10-2004, 12:53 PM

The numbers may not matter at all, as Spin and Wily suggest. But if I may play with the numbers anyway...

I have heard it said that the 7 baskets of the 2nd miracle represent the gentiles just as the 12 baskets of the 1st miracle represents Israel.

The equation "12 = Israel" is simple enough.

The equation "7 = the rest of the world" supposedly comes from the list of 7 nations in Deuteronomy 7:1 and elsewhere. While this list actually (in context) refers to the pre-Israelite inhabitants of the Promised Land, allegedly it becomes for later Jews a stereotypical list to refer to all the goyim. The trouble is that I can't recall having seen this idea supported.

Assuming this is right, it would be tempting to look for parallels among the other numbers. If the crowd corresponding to the Israel miracle is fed by five loaves, the books of the Torah are the obvious thought, as has been said already. Now is there any way of getting an analogous seven for the goyim? How many books did Plato write anyway?

Need a stupid-looking emoticon here...

spin · 09-10-2004, 12:53 PM

"YOU SEE SIR, WHEN I LOOK AT THE ACE,
IT REMINDS ME THAT THERE IS BUT ONE GOD.
AND WHEN I SEE THE DUCE,
IT REMINDS ME THAT THE BIBLE
IS DIVIDED INTO TWO PARTS
THE OLD AND THE NEW TESTAMENTS
AND WHEN I SEE THE THREE,
I THINK OF THE FATHER, THE SON,
AND THE HOLY GHOST.
AND WHEN I SEE THE FOUR,
I THINK OF THE FOUR EVANGELISTS
WHO PREACHED THE GOSPEL.
IT WAS MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE, AND JOHN.
AND WHEN I SEE THE FIVE,
IT REMINDS ME OF THE FIVE WISE VIRGINS
WHO TRIMMED THEIR LAMPS.
THERE WERE TEN OF THEM
FIVE WERE WISE AND WERE SAVED.
FIVE WERE FOOLISH AND WERE SHUT OUT.
AND WHEN I SEE THE SIX,
IT REMINDS ME THAT IN SIX DAYS
GOD MADE THIS HEAVEN AND EARTH.
AND WHEN I SEE THE SEVEN,
IT REMINDS ME THAT ON THE SEVENTH DAY,
GOD RESTED.
AND WHEN I SEE THE EIGHT,
I THINK OF THE EIGHT RIGHTEOUS PERSONS GOD SAVED
WHEN HE DESTROYED THIS EARTH
THERE WAS NOAH, HIS WIFE, THEIR THREE SONS,
AND THEIR WIVES.
AND WHEN I SEE THE NINE,
I THINK OF THE LEPERS OUR SAVIOUR CLEANSED.
THE NINE OF THE TEN DIDN'T EVEN THANK HIM.
WHEN I SEE THE TEN,
I THINK OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS
ON THE TABLE OF STONE.
AND WHEN I SEE THE KING,
IT REMINDS ME THAT THERE IS BUT ONE KING
OF HEAVEN, GOD ALMIGHTY
AND WHEN I SEE THE QUEEN,
I THINK OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY,
WHO IS QUEEN OF HEAVEN
AND THE JACK OR KNAVE, IS THE DEVIL."

Don't blame me for the shouting. It's straight cut and paste.

spin

ten to the eleventh · 09-10-2004, 03:38 PM

Man, I hate word problems. What is the specific gravity of unleavened bread? I'm going to have to draw a diagram. I need some graph paper.

funinspace · 09-10-2004, 03:48 PM

It's really so simple...You'all just don't realize that Douglas Adams already figured it out. 5*7 + 12 = 42. You don't need pie or a periodic table. He just put it in his books so cryptically that you'all hadn't realized that it was already explained...uh, what was the question again?

Or was it the dimensions to that lower room in the Great Pyramid, oh never mind...

Wily Coyote · 09-10-2004, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

It's really so simple...You'all just don't realize that Douglas Adams already figured it out. 5*7 + 12 = 42. You don't need pie or a periodic table. He just put it in his books so cryptically that you'all hadn't realized that it was already explained...uh, what was the question again?

Or was it the dimensions to that lower room in the Great Pyramid, oh never mind...

5 X 7 = 35, + 12 = 47, not 42

close, though

Chili · 09-10-2004, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

"

Don't blame me for the shouting. It's straight cut and paste.

spin

Come on spin, we're not playing cards here.

In my story the numbers and shape of the numbers explain the salvation story and all I have to do is fill in the minutes and seconds between the "Liturgy of the Hours" that serve as is the poetic biblical confirmation of my prose.

offa · 09-10-2004, 08:05 PM

Quotes from Thiering,

As Austin Farrer said a generation ago, before the scrolls were known,
the "riddle of the loaves" is not to be overlooked. It is pointing to
something, and if the modern reader disregards it, he is losing
something of value.
Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls, p.382

1. It was the duty of the priests to eat the twelve loaves of the
Presence which were set out every day before God (Lev 24:5-9). The
twelve male positions correspond to the twelve loaves. In the time of
King David, the Abiathar priest (Ahimelech, see 1 Chron 24:1-3) had
allowed David and his men to eat five loaves on the condition that
they had "kept themselves from women" (1 Sam 21:1-6; see also
Mk 2:25-26). A division of loaves into a higher seven for the priests
and levites and a lower five for the laity was thus established, the
division that was maintained in the gospel period. The two "miraculous
feedings" used five and seven "loaves" (Mk 6:38, 8:5).

Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls, p.345

offa

09-10-2004, 12:53 PM	#14
Brother Daniel Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mi'kmaq land Posts: 745	Fwiw The numbers may not matter at all, as Spin and Wily suggest. But if I may play with the numbers anyway... I have heard it said that the 7 baskets of the 2nd miracle represent the gentiles just as the 12 baskets of the 1st miracle represents Israel. The equation "12 = Israel" is simple enough. The equation "7 = the rest of the world" supposedly comes from the list of 7 nations in Deuteronomy 7:1 and elsewhere. While this list actually (in context) refers to the pre-Israelite inhabitants of the Promised Land, allegedly it becomes for later Jews a stereotypical list to refer to all the goyim. The trouble is that I can't recall having seen this idea supported. Assuming this is right, it would be tempting to look for parallels among the other numbers. If the crowd corresponding to the Israel miracle is fed by five loaves, the books of the Torah are the obvious thought, as has been said already. Now is there any way of getting an analogous seven for the goyim? How many books did Plato write anyway? Need a stupid-looking emoticon here...

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09-10-2004, 12:53 PM	#15
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	"YOU SEE SIR, WHEN I LOOK AT THE ACE, IT REMINDS ME THAT THERE IS BUT ONE GOD. AND WHEN I SEE THE DUCE, IT REMINDS ME THAT THE BIBLE IS DIVIDED INTO TWO PARTS THE OLD AND THE NEW TESTAMENTS AND WHEN I SEE THE THREE, I THINK OF THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY GHOST. AND WHEN I SEE THE FOUR, I THINK OF THE FOUR EVANGELISTS WHO PREACHED THE GOSPEL. IT WAS MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE, AND JOHN. AND WHEN I SEE THE FIVE, IT REMINDS ME OF THE FIVE WISE VIRGINS WHO TRIMMED THEIR LAMPS. THERE WERE TEN OF THEM FIVE WERE WISE AND WERE SAVED. FIVE WERE FOOLISH AND WERE SHUT OUT. AND WHEN I SEE THE SIX, IT REMINDS ME THAT IN SIX DAYS GOD MADE THIS HEAVEN AND EARTH. AND WHEN I SEE THE SEVEN, IT REMINDS ME THAT ON THE SEVENTH DAY, GOD RESTED. AND WHEN I SEE THE EIGHT, I THINK OF THE EIGHT RIGHTEOUS PERSONS GOD SAVED WHEN HE DESTROYED THIS EARTH THERE WAS NOAH, HIS WIFE, THEIR THREE SONS, AND THEIR WIVES. AND WHEN I SEE THE NINE, I THINK OF THE LEPERS OUR SAVIOUR CLEANSED. THE NINE OF THE TEN DIDN'T EVEN THANK HIM. WHEN I SEE THE TEN, I THINK OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS ON THE TABLE OF STONE. AND WHEN I SEE THE KING, IT REMINDS ME THAT THERE IS BUT ONE KING OF HEAVEN, GOD ALMIGHTY AND WHEN I SEE THE QUEEN, I THINK OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY, WHO IS QUEEN OF HEAVEN AND THE JACK OR KNAVE, IS THE DEVIL." Don't blame me for the shouting. It's straight cut and paste. spin

09-10-2004, 03:38 PM	#16
ten to the eleventh Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 1,682	Man, I hate word problems. What is the specific gravity of unleavened bread? I'm going to have to draw a diagram. I need some graph paper.

09-10-2004, 03:48 PM	#17
funinspace Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: North West usa Posts: 10,245	It's really so simple...You'all just don't realize that Douglas Adams already figured it out. 5*7 + 12 = 42. You don't need pie or a periodic table. He just put it in his books so cryptically that you'all hadn't realized that it was already explained...uh, what was the question again? Or was it the dimensions to that lower room in the Great Pyramid, oh never mind...

09-10-2004, 08:05 PM	#20
offa Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Monroeville, Ohio, USA Posts: 440	Quotes from Thiering, As Austin Farrer said a generation ago, before the scrolls were known, the "riddle of the loaves" is not to be overlooked. It is pointing to something, and if the modern reader disregards it, he is losing something of value. Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls, p.382 1. It was the duty of the priests to eat the twelve loaves of the Presence which were set out every day before God (Lev 24:5-9). The twelve male positions correspond to the twelve loaves. In the time of King David, the Abiathar priest (Ahimelech, see 1 Chron 24:1-3) had allowed David and his men to eat five loaves on the condition that they had "kept themselves from women" (1 Sam 21:1-6; see also Mk 2:25-26). A division of loaves into a higher seven for the priests and levites and a lower five for the laity was thus established, the division that was maintained in the gospel period. The two "miraculous feedings" used five and seven "loaves" (Mk 6:38, 8:5). Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls, p.345 offa

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