Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Patrick F · 06-25-2009, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mg01

If the Levite portion of the booty was already 6,750 sheep/goats, 720 cattle, 610 donkeys, and 320 "virgins", what is Eleazar supposed to do with YHWH's tribute? In all other instances of something being "devoted" or "offered" to YHWH the text is pretty clear about what's going on and it always involves a fire and an alter. Where in Numbers 31 does is say this instance is any different?

I know what you're saying but it's just that Christians will counter that it doesn't actually say they were offered as a "burnt" offering.

Now, it's true that it says they are to be used as an offering to Yahweh and Yahweh accepted human sacrifice on two occasions in the Bible and he has no problem with having lots and lots of little children slaughtered if they're from the wrong-god-worshiping nation, but it doesn't actually say that the girls were sacrificed to Yahweh on this occasion.

The "faithful" will grasp on to anything they can to excuse this stuff, as you know.

Although, in this case I think the girls were probably offered to Yawheh the same way Samuel was offered to Yahweh by his mother when she gave him to the priest to use as a worker for life.

Just my thoughts.

GenesisNemesis · 06-25-2009, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

We should consider that God had a plan and did what was necessary to take make it happen.

How do you know? Even if god did have a plan, why should we consider following it?

mg01 · 06-26-2009, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick F

Btw...how do you know it was only 12,000 Israelite soldiers?

It's in an earlier verse. A thousand from each tribe, 12 thosand total.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numbers 31:5

So out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand from each tribe were conscripted, twelve thousand armed for battle.

andrewcriddle · 06-26-2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petergdi

Quote:

Originally Posted by mg01

If the Levite portion of the booty was already 6,750 sheep/goats, 720 cattle, 610 donkeys, and 320 "virgins", what is Eleazar supposed to do with YHWH's tribute? In all other instances of something being "devoted" or "offered" to YHWH the text is pretty clear about what's going on and it always involves a fire and an alter. Where in Numbers 31 does is say this instance is any different?

It is a "heave offering." Where in the Bible is a "heave offering to YHWH" something to be consumed by fire? It seems to be that it is always for the use of the priest(s) even though it belongs to God.

Peter.

Yes

The word used is (TH)RVMH an offering eg a heave offering,

If killing as a sacrifice was meant one would probably expect either (CH)RM devoted ie devoted unto death, or HELH to offer up ie on the altar the hiphil of ELH to go up. HELH is used in both the Jephthah narrative and the Abraham and Isaac narrative.

Andrew Criddle

Sheshbazzar · 06-26-2009, 04:00 PM

Whoopie! so the priests get 'use' them, rather than burn them.
I can think of many reasons being burned, would be much preferable to being 'used' by the murderers of ones father, mother, brothers, and pregnant sisters.

Patrick F · 06-26-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Whoopie! so the priests get 'use' them, rather than burn them.
I can think of many reasons being burned, would be much preferable to being 'used' by the murderers of ones father, mother, brothers, and pregnant sisters.

Yes, especially since we know from the story of Samuel and Eli's sons that priests could be prone to take advantage of women.

Sheshbazzar · 06-26-2009, 09:08 PM

Heh, Moses' law was so... convenient, just throw 'em on the ground, bang 'em, and they had ta' marry ya, even though ya just got done with the slaughtering of their father, mother, brothers, and married sisters.
Wow! how Hebrews love getting some strange stuff!....'er...strangers, yeah, 'strangers', that's right, "love the -stranger" .....sounds better, don't it?

Free Indeed · 06-27-2009, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Indeed

We should consider that God had a plan and did what was necessary to take make it happen.

How do you know? Even if god did have a plan, why should we consider following it?

Fire insurance.

Sheshbazzar · 06-27-2009, 06:12 AM

NOTICE. Your Fire Insurance Policy has been permanently revoked and voided for flagrant and wilful violations of the terms of the contract.

boneyard bill · 06-28-2009, 10:53 AM

Actually, my childhood instruction in the bible didn't spare the violence. I remember being taught that Jezebel was the wickedest woman in the bible, but my choice was Jael. She pounded a tent peg through a man's temple while he slept. I thought that was about as wicked as it could get. I didn't realize that she was the heroine of that story for doing so.

We also got the story of Absolam and how he got his hair caught in a tree while trying to escape and was killed by his pursuer. But we didn't get much of the sex. The part where Absolam beds all ten of David's concubines after seizing power wasn't a part of our instruction.

But what surprises me today is how much misinformation about the bible is being spread by fundamentalists. I had a discussion with my sister on the subject. She is apparently the victim of a good deal of "dispensationalist" propaganda. She has all these ideas about how the antichrist is going to do all of these evil things in the end times. Actually, the antichrist is only mentioned in the letters of John. The term clearly refers to a collection of people, not a single person, and the evil that they do is that they preach a false doctrine. Essentially, the antichrist refers to Ebionites and Docetists.

And she is convinced that the end times are near because the Jews have returned to Israel. But the biblical reference is clearly to the book of Ezekiel and refers to the return of the Jews, circa 520 B.C., after the Babylonian Captivity.

And Satan will gather the nations of the earth against Jerusalem. Also true according to the Book of Revelation, but only after Jesus has returned and ruled for 1,000 years. It certainly shouldn't be confused with any contemporary events.

Nor was there ever a battle of Armageddon. Satan gathered his forces there, but God did not show up.

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06-26-2009, 04:00 PM	#45
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Whoopie! so the priests get 'use' them, rather than burn them. I can think of many reasons being burned, would be much preferable to being 'used' by the murderers of ones father, mother, brothers, and pregnant sisters.

06-26-2009, 09:08 PM	#47
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Heh, Moses' law was so... convenient, just throw 'em on the ground, bang 'em, and they had ta' marry ya, even though ya just got done with the slaughtering of their father, mother, brothers, and married sisters. Wow! how Hebrews love getting some strange stuff!....'er...strangers, yeah, 'strangers', that's right, "love the -stranger" .....sounds better, don't it?

06-27-2009, 06:12 AM	#49
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	NOTICE. Your Fire Insurance Policy has been permanently revoked and voided for flagrant and wilful violations of the terms of the contract.

06-28-2009, 10:53 AM	#50
boneyard bill Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 15,796	Actually, my childhood instruction in the bible didn't spare the violence. I remember being taught that Jezebel was the wickedest woman in the bible, but my choice was Jael. She pounded a tent peg through a man's temple while he slept. I thought that was about as wicked as it could get. I didn't realize that she was the heroine of that story for doing so. We also got the story of Absolam and how he got his hair caught in a tree while trying to escape and was killed by his pursuer. But we didn't get much of the sex. The part where Absolam beds all ten of David's concubines after seizing power wasn't a part of our instruction. But what surprises me today is how much misinformation about the bible is being spread by fundamentalists. I had a discussion with my sister on the subject. She is apparently the victim of a good deal of "dispensationalist" propaganda. She has all these ideas about how the antichrist is going to do all of these evil things in the end times. Actually, the antichrist is only mentioned in the letters of John. The term clearly refers to a collection of people, not a single person, and the evil that they do is that they preach a false doctrine. Essentially, the antichrist refers to Ebionites and Docetists. And she is convinced that the end times are near because the Jews have returned to Israel. But the biblical reference is clearly to the book of Ezekiel and refers to the return of the Jews, circa 520 B.C., after the Babylonian Captivity. And Satan will gather the nations of the earth against Jerusalem. Also true according to the Book of Revelation, but only after Jesus has returned and ruled for 1,000 years. It certainly shouldn't be confused with any contemporary events. Nor was there ever a battle of Armageddon. Satan gathered his forces there, but God did not show up.

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