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Old 01-09-2008, 11:58 AM   #71
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But none of these objections has any real weight.
No kidding. Actual scholars put forth those objections? I can't imagine anyone with an established reputation offering such a transparently lame argument. Were they just trying to get some exposure in journals or something? Do they think the scriptural basis for Jesus' responses is just a coincidence?
The third is valid, though as Jeffrey maintains, not grave and is questionable. One and two are easily dismissed, the first because God and Satan are often conflated in these circumstances (who asked David to conduct the census?) but Jeffrey points that out, and the second, in my opinion, actually supports the identification. Who are these detractors? I long thought this was the standard view.
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Old 01-09-2008, 11:59 AM   #72
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Someone whom Matthew says
teaches that fasting and prayer are required for certain types of
"Healing"; and someone who actually undertakes a fast for
40 days is usually described as some type of ascetic.
Not if the fasting and prayer in question are quite clearly and explicitly presented in the context of Jewish tradition. By your clearly flawed reasoning, all Jews were ascetics.
Don't give him any ideas!
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Old 01-09-2008, 12:22 PM   #73
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No kidding. Actual scholars put forth those objections? I can't imagine anyone with an established reputation offering such a transparently lame argument. Were they just trying to get some exposure in journals or something? Do they think the scriptural basis for Jesus' responses is just a coincidence?
The third is valid, though as Jeffrey maintains, not grave and is questionable. One and two are easily dismissed, the first because God and Satan are often conflated in these circumstances (who asked David to conduct the census?) but Jeffrey points that out, and the second, in my opinion, actually supports the identification. Who are these detractors?

I see I have a note on this in an article I wrote but never published entitled "What the Devil is the Devil Up To? The Content of Jesus' Wilderness Temptation according to Q"

I reproduce it below.

Jeffrey

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This recapitualtion view is, however, not without its detractors. See, for instance, the claims of such scholars as G. Kittel (ἔρημος, ἐρημία, ἐρημόω, ἐρήμωσις, TDNT 2, 657-660, esp. p. 658) and H. Reisenfeldt ('The Messianic Character of the Temptation in the Wilderness', in his The Gospel Tradition [Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1970], 75-93, esp. p. 85) that for all that Q 4:1-13 and the story of Israel's Wilderness temptation in Deut 6-8 have in common, there are three points at which the two accounts allegedly differ so significantly that the Israel/Jesus identification and 'recapitulation' contention seem difficult to maintain: first, in Deut 6-8 Israel is tested by God, whereas in Q 4:1-13 Jesus' πειρασμός is carried out by the Devil; second, Israel was in the wilderness for forty years whereas Jesus is described as being there forty days; and, third, in substance the temptations of Jesus are different from the temptations of Israel in the wilderness in that they are addressed to a 'son' depicted as having the power to perform miracles and center in whether or not he would exploit that power for his own benefit, while Israel's temptations are addressed to a 'son' who has no such powers and bear only on Israel's faith and confidence in its God.

See, too, the more recent caveat against the identification/recapitulation assumption made by A. Jacobson in his The First Gospel: An Introduction to Q (Sonoma: Polebridge Press, 1992), 87-88. While not subscribing to the objections raised by Kittel and Reisenfield, and while admitting that the notices in Q 4:1-13 concerning the wilderness setting, testing, 40 days, a bread miracle, a view of all the kingdoms of the world, hunger, and Jesus' obedience are all "possible allusions to deuteronomic and Exodus traditions" (p. 88), Jacobson still prescinds from accepting the idea that the Deuteronomic story of Israel's wilderness temptation forms the primary background against which Q 4:1-13 is to be set and interpreted or that Q intended to present Jesus as the faithful son who stands in contrast to the faithless generation addressed by Moses in Deuteronomy 6-8. His grounds for doing lie in his judgement that
... few of the possible allusions point unerringly to Deuteronomy [emphasis mine]. Deuteronomy mentions manna but not bread from stones. The mountain top view is only vaguely similar to Moses' view; among other things, one view is of the promised land, the other of "this world." Moreover, though Mark (and following him, Luke) has Jesus being tempted during the forty days in the wilderness, Matthew (apparently representing Q) has Jesus tempted after the forty day fast. If Q had had in mind the identification Jesus=son of God=Israel tested in the wilderness, it would seem that the details would have been arranged to fit better, at least if such an identification was the main point of the account (p. 88).
In answer to the objections raised by Kittel and Resienfeld, we should observe, however, that the first of them ignores the fact that, given the import of the notice in Q 4:1-2 of the Spirit's activity of leading/impelling Jesus into the wilderness, Jesus' πειρασμός, though noted as carried out by the Devil, is presented from the first in the Q story as originating with, and determined by, God and as under God's direction (on this, see F.C. Grant, An Introduction to New Testament Thought [New York: Abingdon, 1950], 208; and especially E. Fascher, Jesus und Satan [Halle: Max Niemeyer Verlag, 1949], 31). The second objection is forced. The denial that the reference to forty days in Q 4:2 is meant to recall Deut. 8.2-4 and its recapitulation of Israel's experience of forty years of wilderness 'temptation/testing' not only neglects the fact that the emphasis in both Q and in Deuteronomy is not upon the actual span of time elapsed but on the point that the respective spans are fixed and for a purpose. It also fails to see that already in the Pentateuch itself, that is, in Num 14:34, where Yahweh, appointing an appropriate punishment for Israel's murmuring against him after her scouting party spent forty days spying out the land of Canaan, states:
According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for every day a year, you shall bear your iniquity, forty years, and you shall know my displeasure (RSV),
forty years and forty days can be corresponding periods (on this, see Gerhardsson, The Testing of God's Son, 42-44; W.L. Kynes, A Christology of Solidarity: Jesus as the Representative of His People in Matthew [Larkham - New York - London: University of America Press, 1991], 30). Moreover, as A. Meyer has observed ("Die evangelischen Berichte uber die Versuchung Christi", in Festgabe H. Blümner übericht zum 9, August 1914 von Freunden und Schülern [Buchdr. Berichthaus: Zurich, 1914], 447), since the period in question is associated with an individual and not a people, a reference to days instead of years is more appropriate if the purpose for which the period has been fixed is to be achieved. And the third objection is exegetically flawed. As we will see presently, its main assumption - the presupposition that Jesus is depicted in Q 4:1-13 as one having the power to work miracles - has no grounding in the text.

As to Jacobson's objections, it seems to me that the judgment upon which it is based begs the question. It is by no means clear that the 'fit' between the details of the Q temptation story, on the one hand, and Deut. 6-8 and the exodus traditions alluded to there, on the other, had to have been exact in order for those details to have been taken as pointing to Deuteronomy and the story of Israel's testing that it summarizes, at least for the original audience of the Q story. Indeed, the fact that both Matthew and Luke seem to have read the Q story as thoroughly embedded in Deut 6-8 (on this, see Davies Allinson, Matthew 1: for Matthew and Fitzmyer, Luke 1-9, for Luke) is strong evidence that this alleged necessity was not the case. More importantly, Jacobson's claim that the details in Q concerning bread from stones and the mountain top view are not as precisely aligned with Deuteronomic references to manna and Moses on Mount Nebo as they should be if Q had intended a Son=Israel identification is, notably, grounded in the unargued assumptions (a) that the Deuteronomic notices about manna and Moses on Mount Nebo are the only bread and mountain themed references within Deuteronomy and (b) that without unerring allusions to the manna and Moses references, no identification of Jesus with the Deuteronomic son of God, Israel, was being (or could possibly be) made.
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Old 01-09-2008, 12:39 PM   #74
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But none of these objections has any real weight.
No kidding. Actual scholars put forth those objections?

Yes. See my message to "Solitary Man" above.

I can't imagine anyone with an established reputation offering such a transparently lame argument. Were they just trying to get some exposure in journals or something? Do they think the scriptural basis for Jesus' responses is just a coincidence?
Actually a case can be made against Deut. 6-8 as the (or at least the primary) background of Matt. 4:1-11//Lk. 4:1-13 IF one assumes, as I once did --along with a whole host of scholars -- that (a) Jesus is assumed within the story to be, and is approached by the devil as if he were, a miracle worker; (b) Jesus and/or the devil have some doubts that Jesus really is Son of God, (c) that the petitions to turn (a) stone(s) to bread, etc. are attempts to get Jesus to prove to himself and/or others that he is Son of God, and that the theme of the story is how Jesus does not yet know what his path as Son of God entails and that he is working this out as he responds to the Devil's petitions.

So I wouldn't be too hard on those who oppose the "Deut. 6-8 as background" view. They work from - and/or are influenced by -- assumptions that have long been part of the framework in which the story was interpreted.

Jeffrey
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:13 PM   #75
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Default a challenge to Pete Brown

Pete,

Contrary to your claim, there are no texts or passages in Philo that speak either of Asclepius or of the "priests of Asclepius".

Prove me wrong by citing a specific Philonic text that does..

There are no traditions in any extant pre-1st century CE Greek writing in which Asclepius is shown to be, or is spoken of or depicted as, an ascetic.

There are no traditions in any extant pre-2nd century CE Greek writing in which Asclepius is shown to be, or is spoken of or depicted as, an ascetic.

There are no traditions in any extant pre-3rd century CE Greek writing in which Asclepius is shown to be, or is spoken of or is depicted as, an ascetic.

Prove me wrong by citing an actual text from any of these periods that does.

Jeffrey
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:14 PM   #76
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So I wouldn't be too hard on those who oppose the "Deut. 6-8 as background" view. They work from - and/or are influenced by -- assumptions that have long been part of the framework in which the story was interpreted.
I'll defer to the experts but it seems to me that point #4 above is pretty hard to ignore as a strong indicator of what the author had in mind when writing this scene:
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(4) all of Jesus' responses to the Devil's petitions are derived from this unit of the Deuteronomic text (Deut. 8.2-3; 6.16; 6.13);
In my view, that is where you have to start any attempt to understand what the author had in mind.

The final paragraph of your unpublished note appears to echo my own thoughts in that it seems to me that the expectations for the parallels were unreasonably stringent.

I also see no reason why the alternate you describe can't be held in addition to Deuteronomy. That was considered a strong enough argument to outweigh Jesus' apparent reliance upon Deuteronomy for his replies?
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:31 PM   #77
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So I wouldn't be too hard on those who oppose the "Deut. 6-8 as background" view. They work from - and/or are influenced by -- assumptions that have long been part of the framework in which the story was interpreted.
I'll defer to the experts but it seems to me that point #4 above is pretty hard to ignore as a strong indicator of what the author had in mind when writing this scene:
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(4) all of Jesus' responses to the Devil's petitions are derived from this unit of the Deuteronomic text (Deut. 8.2-3; 6.16; 6.13);
In my view, that is where you have to start any attempt to understand what the author had in mind.
Well, it will come as no surprise when I say that I certainly agree with you. But it's interesting to see how even those who say that this is what should be done nevertheless still don't follow their own advice when they get to interpreting what the story is all about and/or what the nature and the content of the "testing" was. I think J.A.T. Robinson's article on "The Temptations" that appeared in his Twelve New Testament Studies (or via: amazon.co.uk) (available to be read at Questia) is a prime example of this.

But we're still waiting for Pete to state plainly a yes or no to the claim that Deut,. 6-8 is the background of the "temptation" story and what actual arguments (not assertions) he can mount and what evidence (not assertions) he can produce against it if he says "no, it's not".

Jeffrey
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:27 PM   #78
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Hey, I just came across this.

Even the Pope now links Jesus with the vegetarian Essenes.

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In addition, the Pope said on Thursday, Jesus celebrated Passover "without a lamb, as did the Essene community", which did not sacrifice animals. "Instead of the lamb he offered himself, he offered his life," Benedict added.
Edit to Add:
Link-2
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In various discussions of the practice of vegetarianism, and as to whether certain of the founders of the Christian religion, either personally practiced or encouraged the practice, the implications inherent in the following text ought to always be kept in mind.

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But the man that [is] clean, and is not in a journey, and forbeareth to keep the passover, even the same soul shall be cut off from among his people: because he brought not the offering of the LORD in his appointed season, that man shall bear his sin. see Numbers 9:9-14
Which is to say, no matter what calander was (or is) used to calculate the date of Passover, to all who profess to OBEY and KEEP The Law and The Commandments there remains an obligation to eat the passover
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"according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.
No exception at all is made for "vegetarians", as ALL were required to partake.
If there was a man of Israel, and were such man a King of the Jews, the requirement would still apply.

Those who hold that "Christ" was some exception are willfully neglecting that even by their own teachings, The Law was in force until the moment of his death. If he was alive, yet did not obey The Law, then it is by The Law, that he is found as one guilty of sin, as it is written "that man shall bear his sin." But they claim he was without "sin".
"Sin" however, is defined as the "transgression of The Law" 1 John 3:4

Just another one of the many contradictions that are inherent in that mess called Christian Theology.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:53 PM   #79
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["Sin" however, is defined as the "transgression of The Law" 1 John 3:4
Actually, it's identified, not defined, as ἡ ἀνομία -- "the [great]lawlessness/iniquity]", the specific ignoring of, and hostility toward not of the Mosaic law, but the will of God as revealed in Jesus, which has been displayed by the separatists whom the author of 1 John is intent to depict as manifestations of the Antichrist. (on this. see the lengthy discussion of 1 Jn 3:4 on pp. 39-400 in Ray Brown's Anchor Commentary on the Johannine Epistles. See, too, S. Lyonett, "The Notion of Sin in the Johannine Writings" (esp. pp. 42-45) in Sin Redemption and Sacrifice: A Biblical and Patristic Study

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Just another one of the many contradictions that are inherent in that mess called Christian Theology.
Just another of the false exegetical conclusions drawn by a poster who thinks he has more knowledge of the NT (and of 1 John in particular) than he really does.

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Old 01-09-2008, 07:12 PM   #80
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Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
I think that this verse is pretty clear in identifying and defining sin as transgression of the law and transgression against the law. I don't think it merits a book
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