Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Decypher · 07-17-2012, 06:56 AM

By "liberals" I just mean folks outside of conservative Christianity. I'm interested in modern commentators, but also stuff from the past would be fine.

A literal earthly kingdom? Something else?

Toto · 07-17-2012, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decypher

By "liberals" I just mean folks outside of conservative Christianity. I'm interested in modern commentators, but also stuff from the past would be fine.

A literal earthly kingdom? Something else?

Are you asking about the rapture or about the second coming?

There seem to be four basic views among those who think the Bible is some sort of authority -

Dispensational Premillennialism
Historical Premillennialism
Postmillennialism
Amillennialism

You can read about them at the link. I find it hard to take any seriously.

If you want a real liberal, Elaine Pagels has written a book Revelations: Visions, Prophecy, and Politics in the Book of Revelation (or via: amazon.co.uk) which was the subject of several reviews (e.g. in the New Yorker

Quote:

. . . Revelation, far from being meant as a hallucinatory prophecy, is actually a coded account of events that were happening at the time John was writing. It’s essentially a political cartoon about the crisis in the Jesus movement in the late first century, with Jerusalem fallen and the Temple destroyed and the Saviour, despite his promises, still not back. All the imagery of the rapt and the raptured and the rest that the “Left Behind” books have made a staple for fundamentalist Christians represents contemporary people and events, and was well understood in those terms by the original audience. Revelation is really like one of those old-fashioned editorial drawings where Labor is a pair of overalls and a hammer, and Capital a bag of money in a tuxedo and top hat, and Economic Justice a woman in flowing robes, with a worried look. “When John says that ‘the beast that I saw was like a leopard, its feet were like a bear’s and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth,’ he revises Daniel’s vision to picture Rome as the worst empire of all,” Pagels writes. “When he says that the beast’s seven heads are ‘seven kings,’ John probably means the Roman emperors who ruled from the time of Augustus until his own time.” As for the creepy 666, the “number of the beast,” the original text adds, helpfully, “Let anyone with understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a person.” This almost certainly refers—by way of Gematria, the Jewish numerological system—to the contemporary Emperor Nero. Even John’s vision of a great mountain exploding is a topical reference to the recent eruption of Vesuvius, in C.E. 79. Revelation is a highly colored picture of the present, not a prophecy of the future.

There is also an thread in the forum linking to a series of youtube videos from someone demonstrating the astrological symbolism in Revelation - quite fascination.

Decypher · 07-18-2012, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Are you asking about the rapture or about the second coming?

Neither.

Quote:

If you want a real liberal, Elaine Pagels has written a book

Thanks.

Toto · 07-25-2012, 01:19 PM

Here's a review of Pagels

Diogenes the Cynic · 07-26-2012, 07:51 AM

What Pagels is saying is not that "liberal." That's pretty much the mainstream view and is essentially the same reading as the Catholic Church. I do like her analogy to political cartoons. I think that's very apt.

The millenial/rapture stuff really only arose in the 19th Century, is not really Biblically based (there is neither a "rapture" event or "antichrist" as a futuristic supervillain in the Bible). That's as a much a product of pop culture nonsense like The Late Great Planet Earth (which said the world was going to end in the 1980's), and The Omen, which is completely inaccurate in every way.

Here's a few quick thumbnails for some of the common images, by the way.

The "whore" is Rome ("sits on 7 mountains" = the 7 hills of Rome).

The Beast is the Roman Emperor, the heads are different ones, the wounded and re-healed head is Domitian, who was viewed by many as a reincarnation of Nero during his reign.

The number of the Beast is a numerical anagram for KAISAR NERON

The brand on the hands and foreheads are slave brands (that's where Romans conventionally branded or tattooed their slaves to mark them as their property). This was the author's way of saying that being forced to use Roman currency, with the graven face of the Emperor, "enslaved" Christians to the Emperor.

Revelation may not have originally even been Christian. A good argument can be made that it was modified from what was originally a Jewish apocalypse.

Decypher · 08-12-2012, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

The millenial/rapture stuff really only arose in the 19th Century, is not really Biblically based (there is neither a "rapture" event or "antichrist" as a futuristic supervillain in the Bible). That's as a much a product of pop culture nonsense like The Late Great Planet Earth (which said the world was going to end in the 1980's), and The Omen, which is completely inaccurate in every way.

I would agree if you are speaking about a pre-trib rapture.

However, "millennial stuff" of some kind and "antichrist" go back to early Christianity.

07-17-2012, 06:56 AM	#1
Decypher Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: England Posts: 688	Liberal commentators on the Rev. 20 millennium By "liberals" I just mean folks outside of conservative Christianity. I'm interested in modern commentators, but also stuff from the past would be fine. A literal earthly kingdom? Something else?

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07-25-2012, 01:19 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Here's a review of Pagels

07-26-2012, 07:51 AM	#5
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	What Pagels is saying is not that "liberal." That's pretty much the mainstream view and is essentially the same reading as the Catholic Church. I do like her analogy to political cartoons. I think that's very apt. The millenial/rapture stuff really only arose in the 19th Century, is not really Biblically based (there is neither a "rapture" event or "antichrist" as a futuristic supervillain in the Bible). That's as a much a product of pop culture nonsense like The Late Great Planet Earth (which said the world was going to end in the 1980's), and The Omen, which is completely inaccurate in every way. Here's a few quick thumbnails for some of the common images, by the way. The "whore" is Rome ("sits on 7 mountains" = the 7 hills of Rome). The Beast is the Roman Emperor, the heads are different ones, the wounded and re-healed head is Domitian, who was viewed by many as a reincarnation of Nero during his reign. The number of the Beast is a numerical anagram for KAISAR NERON The brand on the hands and foreheads are slave brands (that's where Romans conventionally branded or tattooed their slaves to mark them as their property). This was the author's way of saying that being forced to use Roman currency, with the graven face of the Emperor, "enslaved" Christians to the Emperor. Revelation may not have originally even been Christian. A good argument can be made that it was modified from what was originally a Jewish apocalypse.

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