Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 07-02-2011, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

But if, during the first century, the notion was in the air that it was possible to acquire someone's attributes by making a meal out of him, then we have a sufficient explanation for the ritual of the Eucharist. In that case we do not need to assume either a historical Last Supper or any early Christian's direct acquaintance with the writings of any particular predecessor religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

But writings are all we have.

It was not all they had. We are not justified in trying to guess what they were thinking on the assumption that they knew nothing more about their socio-cultural environment than what we know about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

If the writings don't support the idea that the Egyptians held Eucharist-like beliefs, then how can we get to the point of saying that during the first century such notions were in the air?

Our first step in getting to that point is to stop treating all ancient writings the same way some Christians treat the Bible.

Roger Pearse · 07-02-2011, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

This is Budge's translation of the Unas Pyramid Text

Much better -- thank you!

Roger Pearse · 07-02-2011, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

Quote:

The idea that the Didache is an ebionite text is a curious one.

It's a connection Wilson makes.

Best of luck to him with that, although it surely weakens -- not strengthens -- his arguments. But if we use it as an example of early practice, that would be sound enough.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

JonA · 07-02-2011, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

But if, during the first century, the notion was in the air that it was possible to acquire someone's attributes by making a meal out of him, then we have a sufficient explanation for the ritual of the Eucharist. In that case we do not need to assume either a historical Last Supper or any early Christian's direct acquaintance with the writings of any particular predecessor religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

But writings are all we have.

It was not all they had. We are not justified in trying to guess what they were thinking on the assumption that they knew nothing more about their socio-cultural environment than what we know about it.

We are not justified in trying to guess what they were thinking. Period.

If you have no evidence that 'the notion was in the air', then you have nothing. It's that simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

If the writings don't support the idea that the Egyptians held Eucharist-like beliefs, then how can we get to the point of saying that during the first century such notions were in the air?

Our first step in getting to that point is to stop treating all ancient writings the same way some Christians treat the Bible.

I have absolutely no idea what that means. Who here is 'treating all ancient writings the same way some Christians treat the Bible'? Is this even relevant?

Jon

DAZ · 07-02-2011, 09:46 AM

I read the Didache yesterday. In chapters 9 and 10 it covers the Eucharist here. In green is the text that appears to be a Jewish prayer (see footnote 41 in § 4 after chapter 10).
Source: Bouyer, L. : Eucharistie, Desclée - Tournai, 1990. pp.32-34.

It seems the Eucharist was an alteration of an existing Jewish practice, reversing the blood law of Lev 7:26. The life in the blood of Jesus saves.

Doug Shaver · 07-03-2011, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

We are not justified in trying to guess what they were thinking. Period.

I was being casual. "Theorize" would convey my intended meaning pretty well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

If you have no evidence that 'the notion was in the air', then you have nothing. It's that simple.

The quotation from the Egyptian writings looks like good evidence to me.

JonA · 07-03-2011, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

If you have no evidence that 'the notion was in the air', then you have nothing. It's that simple.

The quotation from the Egyptian writings looks like good evidence to me.

How similar is it, though?

How much could we realistically say traces to the Pyramid Texts?

Jon

Doug Shaver · 07-04-2011, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Shaver

The quotation from the Egyptian writings looks like good evidence to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

How similar is it, though?

I don't have a metric for similarity between religious concepts, so I can't give you a good answer to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

How much could we realistically say traces to the Pyramid Texts?

Other than the Ahmes Papyrus, my acquaintance with ancient Egyptian writing is limited to what has been posted in this thread, and so any opinion I might offer would be worthless.

Roger Pearse · 07-04-2011, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

How much could we realistically say traces to the Pyramid Texts?

I don't think we should accept the idea of connection. Nothing about eating something in order to increase one's powers requires a theory of special origin: it is a natural idea to arise from eating as an action.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

JonA · 07-04-2011, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonA

How much could we realistically say traces to the Pyramid Texts?

I don't think we should accept the idea of connection. Nothing about eating something in order to increase one's powers requires a theory of special origin: it is a natural idea to arise from eating as an action.

And I don't even see evidence in the texts that points to the early Christian practice having anything to do with the acquisition of Jesus' 'powers'.

The formula of the Eucharist seems to stem from Jewish communal meal practice; the theological significance seems to have been developed likely before Paul's time for reasons we cannot yet ascertain.

Jon

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07-02-2011, 09:46 AM	#25
DAZ Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Dar al-Harb Posts: 16	I read the Didache yesterday. In chapters 9 and 10 it covers the Eucharist here. In green is the text that appears to be a Jewish prayer (see footnote 41 in § 4 after chapter 10). Source: Bouyer, L. : Eucharistie, Desclée - Tournai, 1990. pp.32-34. It seems the Eucharist was an alteration of an existing Jewish practice, reversing the blood law of Lev 7:26. The life in the blood of Jesus saves.

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