Roland

Are the many miracles that Jesus is said to have performed actually just late accretions to the story of this man?

Assuming for the moment that a Jesus figured lived and died in the time of Pilate, was he also a worker of miracles as the gospels record?

The first extant writings - the epistles of Paul and others - make no mention of them. Neither does Josephus in his two "references" to Jesus (at least not in any specifics). Most of the Christians writing in the 1st half of the Second Century make no reference to them either.

If Jesus really had performed all these amazing feats, wouldn't it seem natural that they would be some of the most prominent elements in any writings on his life?

Interestingly, it was also in the late 2nd Century that writers began telling stories of the miracles of Apolonius of Tyana.

Vorkosigan

Aren't they? You mean....outside of the Gospels....

Roger Pearse used to have a great page on how Apollonius' Life ripped off the later Acts of Paul, particularly the Acts of Paul and Thecla. I can't find it, so I've sent him an email to see where it is.

Vorkosigan

Roland

In addition to Paul and the other epistle writers in the New Testament, Clement, Ignatius and Polycarp - the earliest Christian commentators - also make no mention of Jesus' wondrous miracles.

jbernier

I am not so sure about this. Paul, for instance, seems largely unconcerned about the details of Jesus' life in general. Indeed, when we survey early Christian literature (both "orthodox" and "heretical") in general, with the notable exception of the four gospels, most early writers were much more concerned with the meaning of Jesus rather than the details of his life. The only time such details come up, generally, is to prove one point or another in a debate.

Roland

Perhaps, but human nature being what it is, I find it hard to imagine that many people writing that many words about someone and not at least some time mentioning the fact that this man supposedly did what no one else in the history of the world has done - walked on water, calmed a storm, multiplied loaves and fishes, turned water into wine and raised people from the dead.

The idea that all these writers didn't feel the need to bring up all these details seems to lean more towards the likelihood that the stories themselves came later rather than that the writers were all just indifferent to this aspect of Jesus' life.

Magus55

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/mq12.html

Josephus, Celsus, Jewish rabbis, Hierocles, Emperor Julian etc. all claim that Jesus performed miracles.

Roland

I don't understand how these examples demonstrate anything. Most of them you mention were written well into the 2nd Century. They postdate Paul and the others I mentioned.

As for Josephus, that passage is so suspect that it seems a very tenuous thread on which to build any kind of case.

Vorkosigan

Zindler shows, by meticulous research, that there are no timely references to Jesus in any of the ancient rabbinical works. All are later insertions or misunderstandings. See The Jesus the Jews Never Knew. Even in the unlikely event that the Josephus passage is not entirely an interpolation, it makes no clear reference to miracles. There are no valid ancient references to Jesus outside of the Christian legends and stories.

Vorkosigan

Steven Carr

See http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/mirc1.htm for documented proof of where many of the plot lines and stories come from.

Nowadays, many universities use software to spot plagiarism. It would be interesting to apply such software to the Gospels.

FordMadoxBrown

good thread, Rolamd. I think when one realises that the Gospel narratives are heavily based on the Old Testament prophecies, filling inthe gaps between he sayings of Jesus with a conjectural 'reconstruction' of his life from a tehological basis, then it becomes less 'miraculous' that Jesus is seent o eb doing the things God does inthe OT, stilling the storm, nmoving onthe face of the weaters, feeding the Israelites inthe Wilderness, giving life out of the ground, etc.