Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Little Sister · 06-04-2004, 12:20 PM

Hi folks, I'm new, and I'm here to learn, and I'm not going to pretend for a moment that I know everything, so speak up! Your thoughts are welcome!

I'm a mortgage banker. (Ew, I know.) But that means to me that nothing's true unless it is properly documented. So the Good News Bible -or even the King James version- would never get past a loan underwriter, because this is all sort of 87th hand information. We wouldn't take a fax of a copy of a hand-written note referencing your appraisal, we want an original, dang-it!!

I figure if the bank wants to see originals before putting a few $$ hundred K on the line, I would want to see originals-- and get a few lessons in Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, etc. before I put my "soul" on the line. (Not that I'm sure I have a soul, but if I do, I'm pretty sure I only have one... maybe.)

So what I would like to do is pick the brains of people that know:
Where are the scrolls, and skins and tablets etc, that make up the stuff they put in the Bible? Who has them? Who reads them? Are language experts allowed to go over them? Has anybody ever photographed them? Who claims ownership or property rights over them?

Does anyone here know this stuff? Thanks!
-Lil' Sis

Vorkosigan · 06-04-2004, 04:06 PM

Here is a set of links on papyrology on the NT Gateway.

http://www.ntgateway.com/resource/pap.htm

If you want to know about text criticism, the reconstruction of the original texts from the extant manuscripts, see The Text of the New Testament by Bruce Manning Metzger

and

The Text of the New Testament an Introduction to the Critical Editions and to the Theory and Practice of Modern Textual Criticism by Kurt Aland, Barbara Aland

The Amazon links are all here:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=69772

plus many more suggestions.

Vorkosigan

funinspace · 06-04-2004, 04:09 PM

Not sure how much you already know, or if you are looking for book references? Here is what I think is an excellent summary of the early days of cannon formation.

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...r/NTcanon.html

No matter what, I always recommend reading the materials from various sides of an argument. And there's lots of good references in the local library on this site.

If your comment/query about originals was serious...there are none. The oldest near complete NT books are at least 100 years after the best estimates for when they were written.

DK

Kosh · 06-04-2004, 09:43 PM

It would seem that all these original writings dictated by the most important entity and given to his chosen people were uh, lost. Yeah, I guess they didn't think that it was that important. Nor did he deem it necessary to use a miracle to put them on a medium that would last (as as been noted, he was bankrupt on miracles after the big bad flood). But you can be assured that the copies we have say exactly what the original did. The church has assured us of that.

Especially the part about giving money to the church to support it.

ten percent.

All major credit cards accepted.

judge · 06-05-2004, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Sister

Hi folks, I'm new, and I'm here to learn, and I'm not going to pretend for a moment that I know everything, so speak up! Your thoughts are welcome!

Hi and welcome

Obviously we do not have the original copies of any of the books or letters from the NT. But we do have copies that are unchanged. These are in the Aramaic of the PESHITTA.
The greek versions are clearly and obviously translations. They contain numerous errors as a result of bad translation and all the greek copies differ from one another.
Copies of the eastern peshitta which is the Aramaic version preserved by the Aramaic speaking Church of the East (who still to this day conduct their services in Aramaic) do not vary from one another in the way the greek translations do.

diana · 06-05-2004, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Copies of the eastern peshitta which is the Aramaic version preserved by the Aramaic speaking Church of the East (who still to this day conduct their services in Aramaic) do not vary from one another in the way the greek translations do.

Hi, judge.

I don't mean to be smart here (for a rare change), but are you implying these texts vary from one another in another way, then? Which way would that be?

d

JoeWallack · 06-05-2004, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little Sister

[Hits the stage, she can't help it, she's coming of age]
Hi folks, I'm new, and I'm here to learn, and I'm not going to pretend for a moment that I know everything, so speak up! Your thoughts are welcome!

I'm a mortgage banker. (Ew, I know.) But that means to me that nothing's true unless it is properly documented. So the Good News Bible -or even the King James version- would never get past a loan underwriter, because this is all sort of 87th hand information. We wouldn't take a fax of a copy of a hand-written note referencing your appraisal, we want an original, dang-it!!

I figure if the bank wants to see originals before putting a few $$ hundred K on the line, I would want to see originals-- and get a few lessons in Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, etc. before I put my "soul" on the line. (Not that I'm sure I have a soul, but if I do, I'm pretty sure I only have one... maybe.)

So what I would like to do is pick the brains of people that know:
Where are the scrolls, and skins and tablets etc, that make up the stuff they put in the Bible? Who has them? Who reads them? Are language experts allowed to go over them? Has anybody ever photographed them? Who claims ownership or property rights over them?

Does anyone here know this stuff? Thanks!
-Lil' Sis

JW:
The consensus of Bible scholarship has always been that the originals of the Christian Bible are lost. The related question is how could something presumably so important become lost? Some possible Natural explanations are:

1) When the first Gospels were written they weren't considered so important so no Supernatural effort was made to preserve them.

2) Subsequent Christianity didn't like some of what was originally written, preferring edited copies and therefore deliberately destroyed originals or put them in Saulitary confinement (apparently the same place Jesus and (the) holy spirit have been hiding for the last two thousand years).

Not many people know this but the original KJV manuscript has also been lost. I think a likely explanation for such a loss in relatively modern Biblical times is that someone didn't like something the original said and so it was secretly beheaded in The Tower (foul play).

As a mortgage banker I'm sure you appreciate that motive and opportunity is sometimes all the evidence you need to make conclusions. Sadly, this conclusion has traditionally been ignored by Bible scholarship and the many theologians masquerading as Bible scholars in our University's Religious Departments. Let's say you left an unguarded fresh baked chocolate-chip cookie out in your kitchen which your 8 year boy had unobserved access to and you subsequently discover the cookie is gone. Do you really need much other than motive and opportunity to make a good conclusion?

Joseph

"King James was here" - anonymously written on door of bath house in Newcastle.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Errors...yguid=68161660

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/abdulreis/myhomepage/

judge · 06-05-2004, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

Hi! Excellent question.
They might perhaps vary in very minor ways. The equivalent of a fullstop missing in one and present in another.
On the other hand the various greek versions have different words, different sections etc.

Hi! Excellent question.
They might perhaps vary in very minor ways. The equivalent of a fullstop missing in one and present in another.
On the other hand the various greek versions have different words, different sections etc.

Be aware I am referring to the eastern peshitta here. There are slight differences between the eastern peshitta and the western peshitto. Some verses were changed in the western peshitto to reflect their theology.
There also many differences between the peshitta and the parts that remain of the Old Syriac.
The old syriac is a completely different kettle of fish and has clear evidence it was a translation done by Rabbula of edessa in the 5th century. Rabbula had theological diffeences with his "bretrhren"

in the COE etc, so he revised the peshitta and brought it into line with the greek versions he had.

[Judge-I deleted the double of this post -V]

06-04-2004, 12:20 PM	#1
Little Sister Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Oregon Posts: 534	Where's the original?? Hi folks, I'm new, and I'm here to learn, and I'm not going to pretend for a moment that I know everything, so speak up! Your thoughts are welcome! I'm a mortgage banker. (Ew, I know.) But that means to me that nothing's true unless it is properly documented. So the Good News Bible -or even the King James version- would never get past a loan underwriter, because this is all sort of 87th hand information. We wouldn't take a fax of a copy of a hand-written note referencing your appraisal, we want an original, dang-it!! I figure if the bank wants to see originals before putting a few $$ hundred K on the line, I would want to see originals-- and get a few lessons in Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek, etc. before I put my "soul" on the line. (Not that I'm sure I have a soul, but if I do, I'm pretty sure I only have one... maybe.) So what I would like to do is pick the brains of people that know: Where are the scrolls, and skins and tablets etc, that make up the stuff they put in the Bible? Who has them? Who reads them? Are language experts allowed to go over them? Has anybody ever photographed them? Who claims ownership or property rights over them? Does anyone here know this stuff? Thanks! -Lil' Sis

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06-04-2004, 04:06 PM	#2
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Here is a set of links on papyrology on the NT Gateway. http://www.ntgateway.com/resource/pap.htm If you want to know about text criticism, the reconstruction of the original texts from the extant manuscripts, see The Text of the New Testament by Bruce Manning Metzger and The Text of the New Testament an Introduction to the Critical Editions and to the Theory and Practice of Modern Textual Criticism by Kurt Aland, Barbara Aland The Amazon links are all here: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=69772 plus many more suggestions. Vorkosigan

06-04-2004, 04:09 PM	#3
funinspace Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: North West usa Posts: 10,245	Not sure how much you already know, or if you are looking for book references? Here is what I think is an excellent summary of the early days of cannon formation. http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...r/NTcanon.html No matter what, I always recommend reading the materials from various sides of an argument. And there's lots of good references in the local library on this site. If your comment/query about originals was serious...there are none. The oldest near complete NT books are at least 100 years after the best estimates for when they were written. DK

06-04-2004, 09:43 PM	#4
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	It would seem that all these original writings dictated by the most important entity and given to his chosen people were uh, lost. Yeah, I guess they didn't think that it was that important. Nor did he deem it necessary to use a miracle to put them on a medium that would last (as as been noted, he was bankrupt on miracles after the big bad flood). But you can be assured that the copies we have say exactly what the original did. The church has assured us of that. Especially the part about giving money to the church to support it. ten percent. All major credit cards accepted.

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