Ben C Smith

Just to be clear here, this is assuming that Cephas (Peter) is supposed to be one of the 12 in 1 Corinthians 15.5. I have no problem with that, but just wanted to make the assumption plain.

Yes, that seems like the best way to take the phrase to me. Certainly, a group experience is what the later evangelists had in mind.

I am probably not quite as skeptical as you are about the feasibility of group visions or such. Not that I am an expert or anything on them, but I just do not see a problem with all 12 claiming to have experienced something that they interpreted as an encounter with the risen Lord.

Ben.

dog-on

At face value, for Ben,

Perhaps the most likely answer is that the writer left out two simple words and assumed that these two words were implied.

"in Scripture"


So maybe this is what is actually meant:

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve (in Scripture). 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time,(in Scripture), most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, (in Scripture),as to one abnormally born.

or something along these lines.

Huon

Our Lady Appears in Assiut, Upper Egypt, August - October 2000
http://www.zeitun-eg.org/wa42-2026.htm

And we have a photograph !

Huon

At Lourdes, she was a beautiful young woman, not a small, ugly fat lump. She had a light blue dress. And she said "Que souy la immaculada concepciou" in Bearnese. What else ?

At Fatima, she said she was "a Senhora do Rosário", and that she needed a chapel. What else ?

Huon

1 Cor 15:5-7 is not the only record of the appearances of Christ after his resurrection. There are other different records in the Gospels.

aa5874

I think I get it now, The Holy One was probably on the 10 most wanted list and that's how the children recognised her.

KrisK10

Ben, thanks for the honest response. Is there any chance I could persuade you to try and be more specific?

You said, “I just do not see a problem with all 12 claiming to have experienced something that they interpreted as an encounter with the risen Lord.”

I think you’re saying that not only do you see no problem with the claim of a group experience, but you see no problem with an actual group experience. Now whatever this group experience was, it sure seems in the tradition that it is being expressed as a visual image of Jesus. So, what do you think the actual group experience was, and under what additional process (if any) do you think it came to be known as a group vision of the image of Jesus? And if you think the group experience was in fact an image of Jesus, what is the most comparable example that you know of where multiple adults not on drugs saw the image of the same person at the same time?

Are you suggesting something like what Huon is suggesting, perhaps a lighting phenomena that many people see the same image of a person in? In the same way, many people saw an image of the virgin Mary in a piece of toast a few years back. Is this along the lines of what you are suggesting happened to the 12?

Another possibility is the existence of an afterlife and that Jesus actually appeared to the 12 after his death? Are you suggesting this as the source of the appearance to the 12?

Appreciate you bearing with my attempts to force you into a definitive position in order to sift through the options here.

Kris

Johnny Skeptic

Consider the following Scriptures:

Item 1

Matthew 27:5-7 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.

Item 2

Mark 15:6-7 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

Item 3

John 20:19-20 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

Item 4

Luke 24:33-34 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.

Item 5

Matthew 28:16-17 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Is there any way to harmonize all of those items? Items 3 and 4 take place in Jerusalem. Item 5 takes place in Galilee. Item 5 shows that some doubted. Items 3 and 4 do not mention any doubting. As is true in many other cases in the New Testament, the writer of the book of John does not have nearly the same story to tell as the other Gospel writers tell.

KrisK10

Huon, I focus on 1 Cor 15:5-7 because, with my assumptions previously stated, it is the only appearance claim made while the 12 were probably still alive. The gospels are late enough that the claim of appearances there could easily be legends thrust on people long since dead. There are tons of examples of those in the ancient literature. But the claim in 1 Cor 15:5-7, which, if I'm correct, was a circulating tradition while the 12 were still alive and teaching/preaching amongst those who heard this tradition, are more difficult to make sense of it seems to me because the 12 were available to be asked about their appearance experience.

Kris

Huon

I Corinthians is usually dated 50-60 CE, that is more than 15 years after the fact. The christian Corinthians had no possibility to verify what happened really. And they were certainly not willing to verify an important component of their faith. And the non-christian Corinthians did not care.

As I mentioned in a previous post, there are other different records of the resurrection, and they do not agree exactly.

KrisK10, do you believe that Our Lady appeared in Assiut, Upper Egypt, from August to October 2000 ? The Coptic Church says "yes". The other Christian Churches are silent.