Zenaphobe

Something that recently has my curiosity up is the mention in the Gospels of large groups of people who followed Jesus around the countryside.

I don't know much about Palestine during this time but this paper says the following about the economic situation

Source http://www.philipharland.com/publica...andbook22.html

How would it be possible for there to be throngs of people with the disposable time and income to leave their homes and follow a rabbi around the countryside?

If the majority of the populace were indeed peasants who made their living working the land and sustaining a living, how did they manage all this free time to chase Jesus around the surrounding areas?

Were the crowds an exaggeration by the Gospel writers to make it appear Jesus was a popular teacher who the masses thronged to see?

It just seems fishy.

Minimalist

An author of fiction can create any kind of world he wishes for his characters, can't he?

Petergdi

A large number of people heard him preach. The number who followed him about the countryside was not that huge.

We do know of preachers from the middle ages to the 18th century who attracted large crowds. If your objection would cover these also then it seems there is something wrong with your objection.

There are said to have been 24 kinds of minim at the time of the fall of the second temple. If most of these had at least one popular preacher then there must have been at least a dozen popular preachers in the late secend temple period we know nothing at all about.

Peter.

Thor Q. Mada

In principle, two people are a multitude, and taking into account that the entire world population 2000 years ago is estimated at 230 million only of which the entire Middle East was carrying 8%, a large crowd, or a big army in terms of that time doesn't mean the same thing as for us.

babelfish

I think it's all relative. Like if you grew up in a village with about 100 people in it, then you saw a guy walking around followed by maybe 20 - 40 people, you might think that was quite a large crowd.

Zenaphobe

Here are some verses that I think show you are wrong

John 6:5-26 (King James Version)


5When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?

6And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.

7Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.

8One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him,

9There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?

10And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.

11And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.

12When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.

13Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.

14Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

15When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

16And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,

17And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.

18And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.

19So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.

20But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.

21Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.

22The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;

23(Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks)

24When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.

25And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?

26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

So in John 5 Jesus is in Jerusalem and after healing the guy at the pool it says "after these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee" ,which is interesting because Jerusalem in no where near the sea of Galilee, but from the parallel in Luke 9:10-17 it names Bethsaida as where they went, and it says "a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased" which is the 5000+ crowd that subsequently crosses the sea of Galilee to find Jesus in Capernaum!

Adding Mark 6:33-45 to the mix complicates it more because Jesus feeds the 5000 in an undisclosed location and when they have eaten he tells his disciples to get into the ship, and to go to the other side to Bethsaida, while he sends away the people he just fed, but Bethsaida is where the feeding of the 5000 happened in Luke.

Sorry for getting off the point a bit, but I think all this sufficiently shows the gospel writers claiming a large throng of people followed Jesus considerable distances.


You might as well claim the internet as a counter argument if you are going down that silly a path.

Could you cull out a couple examples from your stated era to show crowds of peasants following these preachers from town to town like groupies? I have a hunch these crowds were amassed during the Sabbath and had horses to pull them the distances they might have traveled to the event.

I am going to have to admit I have no clue where you are going with this. :huh:

What does it have to do with Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John claiming these big crowds following Jesus around in a time when most people were bound by their occupations to have little ability to pick up and wander the country side following him?

Thor Q. Mada

Remember, this is a skeptics forum, and if you have ever worked in logistics, off the cuff arranging fodr and drink for 5000 people is impossible. Oh yes, I forgot he was the son of god.
Quite frankly this entire argument is utterly useless as there is absolutely zero evidence for an historical jesus.

Zenaphobe

It wasn't skeptics I was really trying to persuade.

I disagree that arguments like this are useless. Any argument that can plant the seed of doubt in a fundamentalists mind is useful and ought to be pursued.

I think the MJ argument sounds more convincing to those already deconverted, but the common believer does not make very fertile ground to try and plant that radical sounding of a seed in.

spamandham

It wouldn't be realistically possible, but that doesn't matter to the intended audience. Instead, we see here a glimmer of who the Gospel story was really aimed at (and written by) - relatively well off urbanites who wouldn't easily see this as being nonsense, because they *did* have the means to wander around for days doing nothing.

Solo

'I'll make you fishers of men', no ? Yes, I believe the throngs are symbolical in he gospels. They serve as witness to Jesus' deeds and words, and represent the attraction of, and popular demand for, Jesus and Christianity of the gospellers' days.

The tracking of the people's knowledge of Jesus in Mark is also interesting. Jesus' fame spreads 'immediately' throughout Galilee (1:28) after a single cure of a demon-possessed man. It is only after that he starts to tackle other illnesses, his first success being Peter's mother-in-law (1:30-31). The first chapter of Mark establishes Jesus fame as exorcist, and closely correlates his exorcisms with curing diseases, as acts of spiritual cleansing.

Mark's story of the leprosy cure at the end of the chapter throws a curve ball, one of many in the first gospel. Jesus cleanses the man and charges him not to say anything about the provenance of his cure, save show it to the priest as testimony to the fulfilment of the commands of Moses. But the man goes away and spills the beans, so much so, Mark asserts that Jesus could not show himself 'openly' in the city and had to retire to 'lonely' places - where of course - people come to him from everywhere !

What on earth does this mean ? I am offering a reading of the gospel as an allegory to the appearance and course of manic excitation and belief that it is sent by God, as help and partial self-revelation to his elect. This belief is personified as Jesus. In this scenario, the first chapter of Mark reveals the power and properties of the Spirit that descended on Jesus during his baptism. Jesus begins to perform exorcisms and cures, which relate to the known (but often exaggerated) effects of manic excitation, in improving general health. Sometimes specific conditions such as dermatitis (eczema) are known to disappear during or after a prolonged excitement, which as a rule comes accompanied with vigorous physical activity. Also, relating to the immunity Jesus grants to his disciples to tread on serpents and scorpions (Lk 10:19), or drink poison (Mk 16:18), you should know that during the euphoric excitement, the subject's ability to feel pain is greatly reduced.

The strange desire of Jesus that his patients do not speak of him relates to the 'pressure of speech' which identifies them as abnormally excited, and lunatic, a charge that of course falls on Jesus when his family learns that people forget to eat when they want to be with him. (Mk 3:20-21 : and the crowd came together again, so that they could not even eat. And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, "He is beside himself.")