Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johann_Kaspar · 12-19-2005, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Which French author is that?

Daniel Massé. And what about one Canadian author? :wave:

Johann_Kaspar · 12-19-2005, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yummyfur

Thanks for that link, I skimmed it briefly

There's not much to support it except the name, if one was going by that, one could say, maybe Simon was executed in Rome(in the most lavish execution, as part of Vespasian and Titus's triumph), and was Simon bar Giora the Tyrant, one of the leaders of one of the Jewish factions in Jerusalem during the Jewish War.

Also Raskin seems to have not to have noticed that Manahem, the son(or grandson) of Judas of Galilee, who plays an important role in the Jewish War, can be connected to Simon bar Giora. Simon bar Giora takes over after Manahem death, as leader of Manahem's faction at Masada for awhile, but when they won't all follow his more grandiose schemes, leaves with some of them to form a new faction.

Well, read Massé, the original is always better than the copy. And you are forgetting Eleazar (same family as Judas, Simon, Jakob and Menahem...) who took the lead of that party retreating to Masada. So you are mistaken, Simon bar Giora did not take the lead of that party (namely the "sicarii"...), but was an ally looking for a refuge for a short time in Masada. Right?
Hmmm, now Simon bar Giora, Simon "barjona"... executed in Rome... same side as the sicarii in the Jewish war... the only historical known Simon executed in Rome... interesting...
Would be quite interesting to count how many Jewish parties there were at the time of the war.

Toto · 12-19-2005, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

Oh, OK. I'm trying to keep up with the various theories of what did or did not happen to Peter. For example, Michael Goulder has a different take on it, arguing that Peter was never martyred: "Did Peter ever go to Rome?", Scottish Journal of Theology 57 (2004): 377-396.

Stephen

I assume you know about the claim that Peter's tomb was found in Jerusalem (also here

yummyfur · 12-19-2005, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johann_Kaspar

Well, read Massé, the original is always better than the copy. And you are forgetting Eleazar (same family as Judas, Simon, Jakob and Menahem...) who took the lead of that party retreating to Masada. So you are mistaken, Simon bar Giora did not take the lead of that party (namely the "sicarii"...), but was an ally looking for a refuge for a short time in Masada. Right?
Hmmm, now Simon bar Giora, Simon "barjona"... executed in Rome... same side as the sicarii in the Jewish war... the only historical known Simon executed in Rome... interesting...
Would be quite interesting to count how many Jewish parties there were at the time of the war.

No problem really, as Eleazar joins up with Simon bar Giora once Simon has rested some power from John of Gischala's faction in Jerusalem. Josephus implies that the Masada crew didn't follow Simon initially, because of their cowardice, so it makes sense that they would join him once he seemed to have come upon success. Also just to add to the confusion Eleazer son of Jairus(supposedly same family, but obviously not directly from Judas of Galille as his father), leader of the zealots at Masada, has two brothers Simon and Judas.

S.C.Carlson · 12-19-2005, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I assume you know about the claim that Peter's tomb was found in Jerusalem (also here

Thanks for reminding me about that one. Should I have specified credible claims?

yummyfur · 12-19-2005, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johann_Kaspar

Hmmm, now Simon bar Giora, Simon "barjona"...

I missed this when I first read it. It is impossible that Josephus would transliterate the name Yonah as Gioras, because he transliterates Yonah as Ionas in Antiquities of the Jews, the names are in no way similar.

So really no connection at all.

Johann_Kaspar · 12-20-2005, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yummyfur

I missed this when I first read it. It is impossible that Josephus would transliterate the name Yonah as Gioras, because he transliterates Yonah as Ionas in Antiquities of the Jews, the names are in no way similar.

So really no connection at all.

Maybe, maybe...
But if I can trust Josephus reasonably (even if there is many examples that he was edited, deleted, added)... what about the other way round? Gospels writers or copiers alterating the name to "barjona"? Who knows. No proof either way...

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