Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Aravnah Ornan · 09-24-2003, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Life without God is meaningless, for no matter what we do, we still die, and even the greatest of affects upon the world fade away.

So what if they do? Get out your wonderful holy book and read Eccl. 3:18-22.

Theli · 09-24-2003, 06:17 AM

Quote:

1.) Christianity is the only one that passes "the logic test."

Since when do we have to chose a religion at all?

Wayne Delia · 09-24-2003, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Taffer
First off, how are we "defying" physical laws? I had sort of assumed that we were here in perfect accordance with physical laws. It's sort of hard to be anything else.

"Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of physics!" (Homer Simpson)

WMD

paul30 · 09-24-2003, 08:56 AM

I must say my assessment is the reverse of mon chi chi's.

When I was growing up my parents and older sister made a halfhearted attempt to turn me into a Christian.

It seemed silly, but I didn't pay much attention.

Then I went to a Christian high school, which tried very vigorously to turn me into a Christian. This bore more fruit, because it made me examine Christianity closely, and cured me of it forever.

Far from being logical, Christianity strikes me as little short of insane.

An all-powerful and all-knowing God creates humans and then gets so angry at them (for the crime of eating an apple) that He decides to punish not only the offenders but EVERYBODY for ALL ETERNITY with excruciating torments.

This argues a Deity who is sadistic and vengeful and paranoid and has the morals of an abused two-year-old.

But then, in a moment of absentmindedness, this God impregnates a virgin, either has or becomes a human being, and then this human being gets in trouble and dies.

With uncharacteristic leniency, this God then decides that his eternal wrath has been appeased--but only if you believe it has.

Everybody who doesn't so believe gets to suffer--hideously and forever--for someone else's (rather mild) misdemeanor.

What's so logical about this?

What is even sane about this?

This God is clearly a lunatic, like Captain Ahab obsessed with killing everyone in his path to exact revenge (but for a much smaller slight).

This God is infinitely bloodthirsty, likes killing for its own sake, and is perfectly happy to punish the wrong people, as long as He gets to punish someone--or lots of someones.

And then there's the whole "Chosen People" motif. This is simply an early version of the Elect or the Super Race.

It is a common theme in cultures--and a bad one. Thinking you are better than other people tends to make you as vicious as God himself--it made the early Israelites so. Witness the genocide at Jericho and other places--ordered by God, by the way.

The Christian version is the Saved. These people have often taken to "saving" others at the point of a gun.

All in all, an arrogant, imperialistic, ruthless, blinkered religion. Much like the Deity it worships.

Jamie_L · 09-24-2003, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Life without God is meaningless, for no matter what we do, we still die, and even the greatest of affects upon the world fade away.

Maybe so. But just because you might not like that state of affairs doesn't make it less likely to be so.

Life without little pixies to clean my house is more difficult because I have to clean it myself. While true, that isn't a very good arguement for the existence of little pixies who clean my house.

Jamie

tensorproduct · 09-24-2003, 05:07 PM

Maybe somebody posted this already but on mon chi chi's profile he describe's himself as an agnostic atheist.

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Delia
"Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of physics!" (Homer Simpson)

WMD

That's the laws of thermodynamics. Classic line.

Rational BAC · 09-24-2003, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronin
Salvation?

From what or better yet, who?

Your moniker is quite irrational BAC. Immediately noticeable when you say things like "...came down to Earth".

That is just so Dark Ages.

Also, if by heaven, you mean a place of utter joy free from the suffering that we see each moment in the human condition...then why this whole game of misery to begin with?

How long until your monster is satisfied that he has enough sycophants to ease his vain craving?

Sorry about the "came down to Earth" part and I do realize that that is just soo "Dark Ages stuff".

Whatever the hell that is supposed to mean. (Will admit it did sound kinda purty though.)

Brian_iiiii · 09-25-2003, 08:45 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name one way that Christianity is not logical. I shall do my best to answer you, so go ahead.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or how Jesus can be both a man, and God.
I was taught he wasn't half-God half-man, he
was "all God" and "all man". How is this
logical?

paul30 · 09-25-2003, 11:50 AM

Brian 5 raises a good point.

The living Western religions are all dualistic.

This means they see a radical and unbridgeable difference between:

a. God and humanity

b. good and evil

c. one individual and another

Judaism and Islam have retained the first radical difference intact.

But Christianity has tried to bridge the God-and-humanity gap in Jesus, who is both fish and fowl, or God and human.

This is a very tricky idea, and took Christianity bloody decades to thrash out.

It's also a tricky concept to teach people, because once you admit an exception to the God-is-never-man rule, the dam starts to break.

Judaism doesn't convert people much, but Islam does, and it is having a great deal of success, in part because of the simplicity of its dualism.

(For my part, I disbelieve all dualisms.)

paul30 · 09-25-2003, 12:39 PM

Mon chi chi seems to approach all religions from the egocentric position of Chrisitianity.

For most Christians, the entire concern is whether they as individuals will be saved. The whole stress is on me, me, me.

For the Eastern religions, it is important to get past this egocentric anxiety and get past the "self" altogether.

For Judaism and Islam, also, the "self" is not of paramount importance; rather, what is important is how one behaves toward others--with a view toward the harmony of the whole. Their entire ethic militates against "looking out for number one."

Christianity seems to militate FOR looking out for number one.

For this reason it strikes me as deluded and evil.

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09-24-2003, 08:56 AM	#34
paul30 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA USA Posts: 870	I must say my assessment is the reverse of mon chi chi's. When I was growing up my parents and older sister made a halfhearted attempt to turn me into a Christian. It seemed silly, but I didn't pay much attention. Then I went to a Christian high school, which tried very vigorously to turn me into a Christian. This bore more fruit, because it made me examine Christianity closely, and cured me of it forever. Far from being logical, Christianity strikes me as little short of insane. An all-powerful and all-knowing God creates humans and then gets so angry at them (for the crime of eating an apple) that He decides to punish not only the offenders but EVERYBODY for ALL ETERNITY with excruciating torments. This argues a Deity who is sadistic and vengeful and paranoid and has the morals of an abused two-year-old. But then, in a moment of absentmindedness, this God impregnates a virgin, either has or becomes a human being, and then this human being gets in trouble and dies. With uncharacteristic leniency, this God then decides that his eternal wrath has been appeased--but only if you believe it has. Everybody who doesn't so believe gets to suffer--hideously and forever--for someone else's (rather mild) misdemeanor. What's so logical about this? What is even sane about this? This God is clearly a lunatic, like Captain Ahab obsessed with killing everyone in his path to exact revenge (but for a much smaller slight). This God is infinitely bloodthirsty, likes killing for its own sake, and is perfectly happy to punish the wrong people, as long as He gets to punish someone--or lots of someones. And then there's the whole "Chosen People" motif. This is simply an early version of the Elect or the Super Race. It is a common theme in cultures--and a bad one. Thinking you are better than other people tends to make you as vicious as God himself--it made the early Israelites so. Witness the genocide at Jericho and other places--ordered by God, by the way. The Christian version is the Saved. These people have often taken to "saving" others at the point of a gun. All in all, an arrogant, imperialistic, ruthless, blinkered religion. Much like the Deity it worships.

09-25-2003, 08:45 AM	#38
Brian_iiiii Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: U.S.A Posts: 63	-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Name one way that Christianity is not logical. I shall do my best to answer you, so go ahead. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Or how Jesus can be both a man, and God. I was taught he wasn't half-God half-man, he was "all God" and "all man". How is this logical?

09-25-2003, 11:50 AM	#39
paul30 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA USA Posts: 870	Brian 5 raises a good point. The living Western religions are all dualistic. This means they see a radical and unbridgeable difference between: a. God and humanity b. good and evil c. one individual and another Judaism and Islam have retained the first radical difference intact. But Christianity has tried to bridge the God-and-humanity gap in Jesus, who is both fish and fowl, or God and human. This is a very tricky idea, and took Christianity bloody decades to thrash out. It's also a tricky concept to teach people, because once you admit an exception to the God-is-never-man rule, the dam starts to break. Judaism doesn't convert people much, but Islam does, and it is having a great deal of success, in part because of the simplicity of its dualism. (For my part, I disbelieve all dualisms.)

09-25-2003, 12:39 PM	#40
paul30 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atlanta, GA USA Posts: 870	Mon chi chi seems to approach all religions from the egocentric position of Chrisitianity. For most Christians, the entire concern is whether they as individuals will be saved. The whole stress is on me, me, me. For the Eastern religions, it is important to get past this egocentric anxiety and get past the "self" altogether. For Judaism and Islam, also, the "self" is not of paramount importance; rather, what is important is how one behaves toward others--with a view toward the harmony of the whole. Their entire ethic militates against "looking out for number one." Christianity seems to militate FOR looking out for number one. For this reason it strikes me as deluded and evil.

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