Amaleq13

Thanks. That is, more or less, what I thought. What I've never understood, though this is clearly more appropriate for the EoG forum, is how there was a "nothing" from which God could create given that, prior to Creation, God was all that existed. If God was all that existed prior to Creation, there was no "nothing" from which he could create. There was just God. Therefore, the only available "material" would be God. :huh:

CJD

Yeah, I'll buy that. Not so sure how it's "on the contrary," though.

CJD

This is the dilemma indeed. It seems either creation is ex Deo, OR, God, being by nature self-sacrificial, limited himself (spatially), thereby revealing a void (nihilo) within which he would subsequently create.

CJD

Jayhawker Soule

When BiggestBaddestChiefThatEverWas proclaims:

• "There was nothing even close to me before I came along, and there will be nothing like me after I'm gone!"

I fully suspect that the listener would take this as a statement about conditions before and after his reign - thereby acknowledging both a 'before' and 'after' - and I see nothing "self-defeating" about it.

CJD

We're bordering on Anselm's argument here: the BiggestBaddestChiefThatEverWas is clearly the one who has always been reigning. Anything less would not be the BiggestBaddestChiefThatEverWas.

Amaleq13

When I was a theist, I preferred the former since it implied that the entire universe was not actually separate from God but a differentiated part of that singular Entity. I just liked the way that sounded.

guy_683930

CJD-
Can you tell me if there is any biblical evidence that explicitly spells out creation ex nihilo? Because I couldn't find any. Only 2 passages came close:

Proverbs 8:24-25
"24 When there were no depths (tehomat) I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth;"

This would be a reference to tehomat not being around, but I found out that depths (tehomat) sometimes refers to the oceans as well (Psalms 106). Also, since this is the FIRST thing that Yahweh did, it says the mountains had not been shaped, not that they did not exist, so there was SOMETHING around even if that tehomat is referring to the deep from Gen. 1:1. I would argue it is referring to the oceans in v. 24 since it refers to the deep in the singular later on as Yahweh drawing a circle on it, not creating it.

2 Maccabees 7:28
"28I beg you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed.h And in the same way the human race came into being."

This is the prooftext used by Catholics and Eastern Orthodox christians, but one problem with it is that "in the same way the human race came into being", which is NOT ex nihilo in Genesis, it's out of dirt. So, it is either describing a different creation scenario of humans than Genesis, or it's not ex nihilo.

Chili

But it is. The earth already was but it was a formless wasteland and by dividing it between heaven and earth God created order so light may be perceived in heaven but not on earth. The mighty wind swept over the waters begs for order so that knowledge (illumination) may be received and come to rest in the heavens that later becomes the soul of man.

It is wise to keep an eye on the New heavens and the New Earth where all is the same except that the sea is gone in understanding = intuit knowledge is water become dry land for us to walk on and go by (Rev.21:1). So really, Gen.1 is written not as a historic account but for us to come full circle from chaos (unstructured space is a deluge) to peace of mind.

We are creating heaven and earth here inside the mind of man in Jewish mythology and it doesn't matter how old the earth really is or how many civilizations already existed before this time. So yes, I am a young earther in this sense of the word.

CJD

I don't think there is biblical evidence. As I mentioned previously creation ex nihilo is more or less deduced from a particular axiom, namely, that God is transcendent, or "other." Personally, I don't know where to go on this.

We can add to your list (and I don't think the Proverbs passage you cited bears on ex nihilo anyway): "By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible" (Heb. 11:3).

Let's suppose this author knew Gen. 1:1–2 well enough. Given that the materials out of which the world as we now know it were brought forth were already there (at the time of Gen. 1:1–2) — in other words, given that Gen. 1:1ff depicts God coming in media res and subduing the watery chaos — maybe the author of Hebrews is simply saying that the universe (including the 'stuff' from which it was formed) was created by divine fiat?

I don't know!

guy_683930

That could just be creation out of invisible "stuff".