Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jayhawker Soule · 11-29-2005, 11:58 AM

The opening lines of the Torah lend themselves to more than one interpretation and may well have absolutely nothing to do with creation ex nihilo. So, for example, ...

The common translation reflects that of the early Jewish Publication Society (JPS - 1917)

In the beginning G-d created the heaven and the earth.
Now the earth was unformed and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of G-d hovered over the face of the water.
And G-d said: 'Let there be light.' And there was light.

However, the authoritative Stone Edition Tanach renders the 1st verse as ...

In the beginning of God's creating the heavens and the earth

... and treats verse two as a parenthetical.

Similarly, Etz Hayim: Torah and Commentary offers ...

When God began to create heaven and earth
-- the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water --
God said: "Let there be light"; and there was light.

... and notes in its commentary:

Quote:

1. When God began to create The conventional English translation reads: "In the begining God created the heaven and the earth." The translation presented here looks to verse 3 for the completion of the sentence and takes verse 2 to be parenthetical, describing the state of things at the time when God first spoke. Support for understanding the text in this way comes from the second half of 2:4 and of 5:1, both of which refer to Creation and begin with the word "when".

2. unformed and void The Hebrew for this phrase (tohu va-vohu) means "desert waste." The point of the narrative is the idea of order that results from divine intent. There is no suggestion here that God made the world out of nothing, which is a much later conception.

Also concurring with this second rendering are ...

JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH, Standard Edition - July 1999
"When God began to create heaven and earth-the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water-God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light."
Commentary on the Torah - by R. E. Friedman, author of Who Wrote the Bible
"In the begining of God's creating the skies and the earth -- when the earth had been shapeless and formless, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and God's spirit was hovering on the face of the water -- God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light."
The Five Books of Moses: A Translation with Commentary - Alter's highly acclaimed translation

What we appear to have in this 2nd rendering of the Torah is not creation ex nihilo but the creation of order out of chaos; "First Cause" is simply not addressed.

CJD · 11-29-2005, 12:37 PM

Often, creation ex nihilo is not extrapolated from this particular text, for most commentators do see the action in Genesis 1:1 starting in media res. Creation ex nihilo is, however, deduced by a great many expositors because of what they think the canon teaches regarding God's "otherness."

CJD

Amaleq13 · 11-29-2005, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJD

Creation ex nihilo is, however, deduced by a great many expositors because of what they think the canon teaches regarding God's "otherness."

Can you elaborate on this, please?

Jack the Bodiless · 11-30-2005, 02:16 AM

The Hebrew "bara" (create) also means cut, or separate. Thus, the "creation" could refer to the separation of the Heavens from the Earth.

I'm wondering if this was the original meaning of the word, and it later gained the "create" meaning because of the later adoption of the "creation ex nihilo" doctrine and the desire to "re-interpret" Genesis 1:1.

CJD · 11-30-2005, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

The Hebrew "bara" (create) also means cut, or separate. Thus, the "creation" could refer to the separation of the Heavens from the Earth.

I'm wondering if this was the original meaning of the word, and it later gained the "create" meaning because of the later adoption of the "creation ex nihilo" doctrine and the desire to "re-interpret" Genesis 1:1.

I'm not so sure about that. "Create" does not have to mean "from nothing." It could also mean ex Deo ("from God"). There is no doubt, however, that folks wanting to squeeze ex nihilo out of this passage will read into "beginning" (Gen. 1:1) something like "at that time when only God was." But the emphasis in this passage is on God's progressive ordering of the formless and void earth (v. 2); nevertheless, this is not contradictory to the notion of ex nihilo.

CJD

CJD · 11-30-2005, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Can you elaborate on this, please?

Yes, it generally goes like this: God, being transcendent and a se (self-existent), only God could have existed "from all eternity." And they see the Psalmist writing: "Of old you laid the foundation of the earth…they will perish, but you will remain…you are the same and your years have no end" (102:25–27; see also Prov. 8:22–31).

Thus most theologians consider God to be ontologically other—there is no essential co-mingling between the Creator and the creature. This necessarily call for a creation ex nihilo. If this sounds a bit Greekish, well, it is. I personally think ex nihilo is viable, but I'm not quite sure how the Creatorgod relates ontologically to the created. I'm not comfortable with pantheism or monism. Panentheism? I don't know. How about traditional and classical theism, rightly understood (i.e., the balance struck between transcendence and immanence)?

CJD

Jayhawker Soule · 11-30-2005, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJD

Yes, it generally goes like this: God, being transcendent and a se (self-existent), only God could have existed "from all eternity." And they see the Psalmist writing: "Of old you laid the foundation of the earth…they will perish, but you will remain…you are the same and your years have no end" (102:25–27; see also Prov. 8:22–31).

At the risk of engaging in some variant of dueling scriptures, they also see the author writing ...

Quote:

Isaiah 43:10 - Ye are My witnesses, saith HaShem, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no G-d formed, neither shall any be after Me.

... which could be read as suggesting something other than an eternal God.

Be that as it may, and irrespective of what most theologians consider God to be, the current shift in the rendering of Gen. 1:1-3 seems interesting in its own right, and this rendering is not without support from theologians. For example, Clement of Alexandria writes ...

Quote:

O King, great Giver of good gifts to men, Lord of the good, Father, of all the Maker, Who heaven and heaven's adornment, by Thy word Divine fitly disposed, alone didst make; Who broughtest forth the sunshine and the day; Who didst appoint their courses to the stars, And how the earth and sea their place should keep; And when the seasons, in their circling course, Winter and summer, spring and autumn, each

Should come, according to well-ordered plan; Out of a confused heap who didst create This ordered sphere, and from the shapeless mass Of matter didst the universe adorn;- Grant to me life, and be that life welt spent, Thy grace enjoying; let me act and speak In all things as Thy Holy Scriptures teach;

- see Early Christian Writings

While Rashi suggests ...

Quote:

But if you wish to explain it according to its simple meaning, explain it thus: “At the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth, the earth was astonishing with emptiness, and darkness…and God said, ‘Let there be light.’�? But Scripture did not come to teach the sequence of the Creation, ...

- see Bereishit - Chapter 1

And the Etz Hayim commentary refers to Midrash suggesting that the whole question is essentially out of scope ...

Quote:

The first letter of the first word in the Torah, "b'reishit" is the Hebrew letter 'bet'. This prompted the Midrash to suggest that, just as the letter 'bet' in enclosed on three sides but open to the front, we ae not to speculate on the origins of God or what may have existed before Creation [Gen. R. 1:10]. The purpose of such a comment is not to limit scientific enquiry into the origins of the universe but to discourage efforts to prove the unprovable. ... The Torah begins with 'bet', second letter of the Hebrew alphabet, to summon us to begin even if we cannot begin at the very beginning.

CJD · 11-30-2005, 08:32 AM

I agree with the Rabbi's words. The point of the text is in no way attempting to teach us about scientific origins. The Genesis text may also be quite clearly speaking of an existing matter that God orders. But this is not the same as saying (as the Greeks did) that that matter is eternal.

Also, it seems the plain sense of Isa. 43:10b would be: "No god is older than I." I'm not thinking the ancient Israelite hearer (or reader) would see "before me" as an allusion to a time that YHWH was not. It seems kind of self-defeating.

CJD

CJD · 11-30-2005, 08:33 AM

I agree with the Rabbi's words. The point of the text is in no way attempting to teach us about scientific origins. The Genesis text may also be quite clearly speaking of an existing matter that God orders. But this is not the same as saying (as the Greeks did) that that matter is eternal.

Also, it seems the plain sense of Isa. 43:10b would be: "No god is older than I." I'm not thinking the ancient Israelite hearer (or reader) would see "before me" as an allusion to a time that YHWH was not. It seems kind of self-defeating.

CJD

Jayhawker Soule · 11-30-2005, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJD

I agree with the Rabbi's words. The point of the text is in no way attempting to teach us about scientific origins. The Genesis text may also be quite clearly speaking of an existing matter that God orders. But this is not the same as saying (as the Greeks did) that that matter is eternal.

No, it is not the same thing, but given that Genesis 1 deals with the beginnings of the then-known cosmos, the failure to address the 'beginning' of matter seems conspicuous and suggests to me that creation ex nihilo was simply not considered in this primitive cosmology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJD

Also, it seems the plain sense of Isa. 43:10b would be: "No god is older than I." I'm not thinking the ancient Israelite hearer (or reader) would see "before me" as an allusion to a time that YHWH was not. It seems kind of self-defeating.

On the contrary, it sounds very much like the bombastic hyperbole of a chieftain/king proclaiming to be the first and last of his kind.

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11-29-2005, 12:37 PM	#2
CJD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: greater Orlando area Posts: 832	Often, creation ex nihilo is not extrapolated from this particular text, for most commentators do see the action in Genesis 1:1 starting in media res. Creation ex nihilo is, however, deduced by a great many expositors because of what they think the canon teaches regarding God's "otherness." CJD

11-30-2005, 02:16 AM	#4
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	The Hebrew "bara" (create) also means cut, or separate. Thus, the "creation" could refer to the separation of the Heavens from the Earth. I'm wondering if this was the original meaning of the word, and it later gained the "create" meaning because of the later adoption of the "creation ex nihilo" doctrine and the desire to "re-interpret" Genesis 1:1.

11-30-2005, 08:32 AM	#8
CJD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: greater Orlando area Posts: 832	I agree with the Rabbi's words. The point of the text is in no way attempting to teach us about scientific origins. The Genesis text may also be quite clearly speaking of an existing matter that God orders. But this is not the same as saying (as the Greeks did) that that matter is eternal. Also, it seems the plain sense of Isa. 43:10b would be: "No god is older than I." I'm not thinking the ancient Israelite hearer (or reader) would see "before me" as an allusion to a time that YHWH was not. It seems kind of self-defeating. CJD

11-30-2005, 08:33 AM	#9
CJD Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: greater Orlando area Posts: 832	I agree with the Rabbi's words. The point of the text is in no way attempting to teach us about scientific origins. The Genesis text may also be quite clearly speaking of an existing matter that God orders. But this is not the same as saying (as the Greeks did) that that matter is eternal. Also, it seems the plain sense of Isa. 43:10b would be: "No god is older than I." I'm not thinking the ancient Israelite hearer (or reader) would see "before me" as an allusion to a time that YHWH was not. It seems kind of self-defeating. CJD

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