Johnny Skeptic

[quote=JohnnySkeptic] What indicates to you that it is probable that the only reason that certain cities have not
been rebuilt is because God prevented them from being rebuilt? Is it reasonably possible that some cities in the world have not been rebuilt for reasons that have nothing to do with God's involvement?

But I just showed three paragraphs earlier that Lee said “Anyone may make this attempt at any time, that is the point, and Muslims would be quite eager to rebuild Babylon, and disprove Scripture.� In addition, I previously posted 18 examples where Lee discussed intent, motives and results over a number of weeks.

Lee was perfectly willing to discuss results for weeks, then he abandoned that position when he got into trouble, and now he is right back to discussing results again. Here is the proof:

No one is trying now, Lee. Why should they? Let’s take another look at the beginning of my post:

[quote=JohnnySkeptic] What indicates to you that it is probable that the only reason that certain cities have not
been rebuilt is because God prevented them from being rebuilt? Is it reasonably possible that some cities in the world have not been rebuilt for reasons that have nothing to do with God's involvement?

I rephrase my comments to read “What indicates to you that it is probable that the only reason that certain cities have not been rebuilt is because God prevented them from being rebuilt? Is it reasonably possible that some cities, in the world, ‘including Babylon,’ have not been rebuilt for reasons that have nothing to do with God's involvement?�

Regarding your comment “People who should have been able to rebuild it [but failed to so, my words], then it becomes surprising,� you were referring to Babylon, but what about hundreds of other cities that were not rebuilt for reasons that you will have to admit had nothing whatsoever to do with God’s involvement? Otherwise stated, if there were no Babylon prophecy, what would be unusual about the history of Babylon, or for that matter, about the history of any other unrebuilt city? The correct answer is, nothing at all. Will you dispute this? If so, I can assure you that even the vast majority of fundamentalist Christian historians will disagree with you, but they are only historians, right, Lee?

Johnny Skeptic

Pending Lee Merrill's reply to my previous post, consider the following:

Following Lee's own same line of reasoning, he would also have to say "And you may try and rebuild ANY ancient city (there are hundreds if not thousands of ancient cities that people wanted to rebuild but were unable to do so, or that were not rebuilt simply because people found a better location), and people should be able to accomplish this if they try, if this is just a guess, if there is no God, willing to intervene, to keep ALL ancient cities from being restored."

Johnny Skeptic

Where is Lee Merrill?

Sauron

I don't know. I'm curious what he has to say to this:

Of course, lee, if you disagree, then you should take your own advice here: go rebuild Babylon. If you and other christians want to prove to the world that the prophecy is true, then you should take up a collection from among your fellow believers. Start a rebuilding project at Babylon. And when that rebuilding project is divinely and miraculously stopped, you can come back and tell us "I told you so". Put your money where your mouth is, lee.

He can't very well turn this down, if he really wants to prove the bible to be correct. What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, you know.....
:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

Johnny Skeptic

That is a good argument except for the fact that the Iraqis would probably not allow such an attempt. I suspect that Lee will be reluctant to make any more posts in this thread, or possibly in any other thread at this forum.

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Archaeologists generally do! And the Shinar gate was excavated, as I seem to recall, Babylon has silted up, from all that time of being a swamp.

They generally have to resort to letting people know of the problem, and so silence would tend to indicate no problem such as this.

The bricks of Saddam's palace are being sold to soldiers for a dollar apiece! And archaeologists often buy pot shards, when they have to, even on the black market. One of the costs of doing research, at times.

They would probably let some folks know! Outside the country, if they could, discreetly. Though they would not oppose Saddam's soldiers, they certainly wouldn't argue with them.

Well, you can't prove they did, I expect. So this question does not resolve the issue either way, so let's move on.

Well, I agreed before, and I agree again! The prophecy becomes improbable, though, if people try and rebuild it, and fail, and fail, and then skeptics balk at the challenge of rebuilding it! It seems there is some sort of reluctance here.

Which I understand! That is why I would not attempt rebuilding myself, given that Alex died of a fever in his attempt, and Saddam is now unable to proceed with his plans, as well.

Yes, I agree, any ancient city should be able to be rebuilt today, with enough effort, including Babylon, though I am convinced God is real, and that he will back up his words, so people who are convinced this is an illusion may feel free to prove this to me. I expect they will not succeed.

Lee Merrill is getting ready for people to come stay at his house! Putting up curtains (I have 12 windows without curtains), all kinds of stuff to do at my (used to be single-person) domicile.

Just mention that it would be quite a stroke in favor of Islam, to so discredit the supernatural claims of the Bible...

Regards,
Lee

Johnny Skeptic

I don’t have to prove that they did. I am not the claimant. You are. The prophecy asserts that Arabs will “never� pitch their tents in Babylon, but I have never asserted that Arabs “have� pitched their tents in Babylon. I have only asserted that we don’t know either way. In other words, you don’t have any way of proving your comment that “the Babylon prophecy has done pretty well so far.� There is not any reasonable proof at all that Arabs have never pitched their tents in Babylon.

If Isaiah had predicted that no one would ever run a 3 minute, 35 second mile publicly or privately, it would not be up to me to reasonably prove that someone “did� run a 3 minute, 35 second mile publicly or privately. Rather, it would be up to you to reasonably prove that no one has ever run a 3 minute, 35 second mile publicly or privately.

But you have already admitted that Muslims and skeptics “do not� want to rebuild Babylon. Not even close to 1% of historians would agree with your attempt at correlating Alexander’s and Saddam’s attempts to rebuild Babylon with present reluctance to rebuild Babylon, which of course is not reluctance at all, even by "your own admission.�

Why would Muslims and skeptics be interested in rebuilding Babylon? They are well aware that if Babylon were to rebuilt, for all practical purposes the number of Christians in the world would still be the same as it is today, and more importantly that U.S. foreign policy toward Muslims would still be exactly the same as it is today.

In “whose� opinion would the supernatural claims of the Bible be discredited? In the opinions of a sizeable majority of liberal Christians? Not a chance. In the opinions of a sizeable majority of fundamentalist Christians? Not a chance. In the opinion of the U.S. government? Not a chance. In the opinions of even 1% of skeptics? Not a chance. Whose opinions are left? Well, yours, Josh McDowell’s and a relative handful of conservative Christians who probably number less than the membership of the Flat Earth Society.

The members of the Flat Earth Society claim that people like you are missing a golden opportunity to prove that the earth is round. They believe that people like you have not been consistent. Does that sound familiar? Of course it does. You claim that Muslims and skeptics have a golden opportunity to disprove the Bible anytime that they want to by rebuilding Babylon, which you have admitted that they “do not� want to do, and that if they don’t you will find them to be inconsistent. When I brought up this point a number of weeks ago, you said that photographs from outer space prove that the earth is round. Well, not to the satisfaction of the Flat Earth Society. Go ahead and visit their web site and find out for yourself. I suggest that you invite a member of the Flat Earth Society to visit this forum and debate you regarding whether or not the earth is flat. If you can set up such a debate, I propose that the debate be a one on one moderated debate. That would be great entertainment indeed, at least for the skeptics. I also propose that you invite the Muslim who you contacted to participate in a one on one moderated debate about what the Muslim agenda are regarding the Babylon prophecy. I also propose that you find several professors at Christian colleges of your choice who agree with your position that Muslims and skeptics have a golden opportunity to disprove the Bible anytime that they want to by rebuilding Babylon.

The Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2005 says “Islam recognizes the divine origins of the earlier Hebrew and Christian Scriptures and represents itself as both a restoration and a continuation of their tradition. Because of this, the Qur’an draws on biblical stories and repeats many biblical themes. In particular, the stories of several biblical prophets appear in the Qur’an, some in a condensed form; other stories, such as those of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, are given in elaborate detail and even with subtle revisions of the biblical accounts.�

Do you wish to dispute what the encyclopedia says?

In your prideful, haughty, dictatorial attitude you said “so people who are convinced this is an illusion may feel free to prove this to me.� Who in the world do you think you are insisting that Muslims and skeptics must prove things to “your� satisfaction?

lee_merrill

Hi Johnny,

Yes, that is true, we don't know, and this cannot be proven, either way, it would seem. So ... let's move on. I was told I had to defend every aspect in all these verses, so I think I am not actually a claimant! Rather, I was told to be a claimant. And as before, I will have difficulty proving a banner was raised on a bare hilltop. We can make better progress by focusing on areas where we know more.

Some don't! I think others might be interested, especially those who are trying to confound the people who believe the Bible is Scripture that "cannot be broken," and is really God's word.

But why is U.S. foreign policy important to skeptics? And then this is why you have been posting in this forum, because the number of Christians will remain the same? Surely skeptics, and Muslim apologists, set out to convince Christians, with the hope of convincing them. And a plain opportunity such as this, to convince people, is not to be missed.

People who believe that such a prophecy is going to be backed up by God's power!

Unless you tell them, and then go and rebuild it, that should have an impact.

Well, yes, I assume you are trying to convince people who want to know the truth! Not people who are committed to being right in what they now believe.

Exactly, the claim is that the Qur'an restores the true version, implying that the Bible has been corrupted.

Well, you don't have to try and disprove Christianity! I do think the attempt will fail, actually, as will any attempt to rebuild Babylon.

Regards,
Lee

Johnny Skeptic

That is not true. Isaiah is the original claimant, and you became a claimant by asserting that the Babylon prophecy has done pretty well so far, although you don’t have any way of knowing that the prophecy has done pretty well so far regarding Arabs pitching their tents there.

Some Muslims might want to rebuild Babylon, but most certainly not because they believe that the size of the Christian Church would decrease substantially, and most certainly not because they believe that U.S. foreign policy towards Muslims would change as a result. Do you have any evidence that Alexander and Saddam Hussein tried to rebuild Babylon in order to discredit the Bible? If so, where is your evidence? If not, then your “people have a golden opportunity to discredit the Bible by rebuilding Babylon anytime that they want to� argument just flew right out of the window.

My point about U.S. foreign policy applies to Muslims.

Sure, I and a lot of other skeptics are trying to decrease the number of Christians in the world, but we are well aware that rebuilding Babylon would for all practical purposes “not� decrease the number of Christians in the world. Your views about the Babylon prophecy are not widely held “even� among fundamentalist Christians, and much less so among liberal Christians.

You wouldn’t by any chance have any evidence that a sizeable percentage of Christians would give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt, would you? You have already admitted that your views about the Babylon prophecy “are not� widely held even among fundamentalist Christians.

And how many people might that be? You have already admitted that only a few people agree with your views about the Babylon prophecy.

Since you wouldn’t dare try to convince any liberal Christians of your views about the Babylon prophecy, the best places for you to test your theory would be at the Theology Web, your own church, and your favorite Christian colleges and seminaries. I will bet that not even two out a hundred people will agree with your views about the Babylon prophecy. You have access to your church. I don’t. It would be easy for you to test your theory at your own church. It would also be easy for you to ask some of your friends who do not attend your church to ask some members of their churches if they would give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt. My housekeeper’s daughter goes to a Charismatic church. My other employee attends a Church of Christ church. If you wish, I can contact the pastors of those churches and find out if they would give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt. How about it, Lee?

What in the world are you talking about? Don’t you think that the members of the Flat Earth Society want to know the truth? I don’t know of anyone who does not want to know the truth. If the God of the Bible exists, or if any other God exists, I want to know about it, whether or not I would approve of such a God. The members of the Flat Earth Society believe that you are missing a golden opportunity to prove that the earth is round, and that you have been inconsistent in your attempts to prove that the earth is round.

Not the entire Bible, Lee, only parts of it, as the encyclopedia clearly stated, and as the Muslim that you contacted also clearly stated. The encyclopedia says that “Islam recognizes the DIVINE ORIGINS of the EARLIER HEBREW AND CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURES.� Does that not include the book of Isaiah, and even some of the New Testament as well?

And I believe that any attempt that Jesus might make to return to earth will fail too. So far, skeptics have been right about that for two millennia, and I predict that 10,000 years from now, Jesus will still not have returned to earth.

You are trying to bait Muslims and skeptics, but there are not any good reasons at all for them to take the bait. As I have said on a number of occasions, Muslims and skeptics are well aware that if Babylon were to be rebuilt, for all practical purposes the Christian Church would still be just as large as it is today, and that Muslims are well aware that if Babylon were to be rebuilt, U.S. foreign policy towards Muslims would be exactly the same as it is today.

Sauron

Can't do that. You claimed that it had happened. That is a positive claim for fulfillment. Therefore, burden of proof is on you.

Then you're wrong. This claim was part of the verses that you quoted in your opening paragraph. If you want to retract that claim, fine. We can all agree that you've failed utterly to prove your point, and everyone can go home.

1. We already know enough about the nature of this "Arabs pitching tents" claim to realize that it can't be supported. There's no reason to postpone discussion of it; the way the claim is formed is a total dead-end for your position. Apparently you also realize that. Which explains why you pretend that it's unknowable, and why you're in such a hurry to move on. But unfortunately, since it can't be supported, that equates to a failure on your part to prove your claim. Any result that is ambiguous is an automatic failure for lee_merrill, since ambiguity is the opposite of a clear fulfillment.

2. As for the other claim - rebuilding Babylon - you claim that we "know more" there. Well, what we do know about that claim says that:

* Babylon was rebuilt at several times in history;
* there is no motivation for anyone else to try and rebuild it now;
* Babylon did not fall according to the details of the prophecy, so right out of the starting gate this prophecy is a failure

Then produce evidence that such Muslims exist, lee. Is it really that hard? Produce the emails, the websites, the articles, etc.

All the evidence to date suggests that this is just one more thing that you're wrong about but cannot admit. You only say that "others might be interested" because your argument was built upon a faulty assumption about what muslim intent was. So you create another what-if story about fictitious muslims that you hypothesize might exist somewhere.

It isn't - at least not in this conversation. But skeptics are satisfied that the Babylon prophecy failed because the fall of Babylon did not match the details of Ezekiel's prophecy.

Already explained dozens of times to you:


1. In the general case of the bible -- muslims feel they have 101 (or more) reasons why the bible is ALREADY wrong - so muslims have no reason to take up your silly challenge.

2. In the specific case of Babylon -- you have no evidence that they disgree with the prophecy, so again -- muslims no reason to take up the challenge.

3. And in the case of skeptics -- the Babylon prophecy failed for 8 or 9 other reasons. The facts show that the Isaiah prophecy has ALREADY been invalidated by PAST events. That is why nobody should spend a dime to rebuild Babylon: the disproof happened in 539 BCE, when the city peacefully changed hands to the Persians, contrary to prophecy. Multiple other disproofs happened over the following centuries.

I wouldn't spend any time or money proving that Paris was the capital of France, either.

So in all three of the cases in question, there is no need or motivation to take up your lame challenge.

Moreover, there are conditions that haven't been satisifed, lee. As for muslims, you've already been told that they will not attempt to disprove a prophecy unless:

CONDITION 1. they disagree with the prophecy; and

CONDITION 2. they believe that disproving the prophecy would have an actual effect on christians; i.e., by making them reject their own bible.

Neither of these two conditions has been satisfied here.

Not if they don't believe it first. And being told something by a skeptic usually doesn't convince christians. Witness your own obsessive/compulsive behavior about Babylon. If the facts don't change your mind, why would they change the mind of any other christian?

That last sentence is a good description of yourself, lee. As well as fundamentalist christians, who would not change their belief in the bible even if Babylon were to be rebuilt.

You want people to invest money to rebuild Babylon. But no one invests money if they don't expect a return on their investment. That's the situation here: the probability of any return on this investment is very, very low. Therefore, nobody will take up your stupid challenge. This principle has been explained to you multiple times, by different people, using several approaches to make the point clear. It is no longer possible that you misunderstand it, or disagree with it. The only conclusion is that you realize it's a checkmate position for your argument. So you've decided to barricade yourself and keep repeating the broken argument, hoping it gets you out of the need to admit failure. What a sad, pathetic christian you are. :down:

Incorrect, Lee. You seem to forget: I studied Islam and the Quran extensively. There is no wiggle room here; you are simply wrong. Again. But go ahead: keep making claims about a religion that you don't understand. It's vastly entertaining to watch you guess and assume your way through this debate. :rolling: