Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 04-02-2004, 03:06 AM

John the Baptist was 'preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins', although 'without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.'

As John was teaching a false doctrine, why did Jesus praise such a false teacher?

Could it be that the author of Hebrews didn't know what he was talking about, and the central premise of Christianity (that the blood of Jesus is necessary for the forgiveness of sin) is false?

Sensei Meela · 04-02-2004, 08:04 AM

Paul remarked that he rejoiced in anyone preaching Christ. Methinks the apple falls not far from the tree?

funinspace · 04-02-2004, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

John the Baptist was 'preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins', although 'without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.'

As John was teaching a false doctrine, why did Jesus praise such a false teacher?

Could it be that the author of Hebrews didn't know what he was talking about, and the central premise of Christianity (that the blood of Jesus is necessary for the forgiveness of sin) is false?

Since Jesus' mission didn't really kick off until around that moment according to the Bible, and that he didn't die (shed blood) for a couple more years, everyone would still be under the old law. The better question might be towards what was JohnB doing talking about baptism for forgivness of sins, when they should be bringing their favorite eddible animal to the Temple for slaughter. Was it just a new symbolic way of reveling in God or acknowledging him? It seems that allot was going on in that era, and change was in the air, if it ever was really constant.

DK

Jayhawker Soule · 04-03-2004, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Could it be that the author of Hebrews didn't know what he was talking about, and the central premise of Christianity (that the blood of Jesus is necessary for the forgiveness of sin) is false?

Jacob Neusner of Bard College argues that expiation through execution has its foundation in Jewish Law:

Quote:

Given the Rabbinic conviction that all Israel possesses a share in the world to come, meaning, nearly everybody will rise from the grave, the sages took as their task a very particular task. It was the specification of how, in this world, criminals/sinners would receive appropriate punishment in a proper procedure, so expiating sin or crime that, in the world to come, they would take their place along with everyone else in the resurrection and eternal life.

It follows that the religious principle that comes to expression in Sanhedrin-Makkot concerns the meaning of man’s being in God’s image. That means, as God lives forever, so it is in man’s nature to surpass the grave. And how, God’s being just, does the sinner or criminal survive his sin or crime? It is by atonement, specifically, paying with his life in the here and now, so that at the resurrection, he may regain life, along with all Israel. That is why the climactic moment in the Halakhah comes at the end of the long catalog of those sins and crimes penalized with capital punishment. It is with ample reason that the Bavli places at the conclusion and climax of its version the ringing declaration: "all Israel has a portion in the world to come, except…." And the exceptions pointedly do not include any of those listed in the long catalogs of persons executed for sins or crimes.

- see A Judaic Reading

If you and I can achieve the expiation of sin through the shedding of blood, perhaps an appropriate proxy could save us the trouble.

Joyfilled · 04-03-2004, 06:25 AM

You need to read the gospel again, CA. Jesus said that before He came, John the baptist was the greatest man. But then He said "But I tell you the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he is." John the baptists knew that the messian was coming and recognized Him when He saw Him. He was at that time, the ONLY person on earth who could do that. That is why Jesus praised Him. John said that "I baptize with water. But there is one whose sandals I am not fit to wear who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." John made no claims of forgiving people's sins. Only baptizing them with water. Jesus said we need both water and the spirit. Water comes from man and the Spirit comes from God.

Amaleq13 · 04-04-2004, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joyfilled

John the baptists knew that the messian was coming and recognized Him when He saw Him.

Then why did John still have doubts about Jesus' identity while he was in prison?

And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities. Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another? (Mt 11:1-3, KJV)

04-02-2004, 03:06 AM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Why did Jesus praise false teachers? John the Baptist was 'preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins', although 'without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.' As John was teaching a false doctrine, why did Jesus praise such a false teacher? Could it be that the author of Hebrews didn't know what he was talking about, and the central premise of Christianity (that the blood of Jesus is necessary for the forgiveness of sin) is false?

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04-02-2004, 08:04 AM	#2
Sensei Meela Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: AZ, u.s.a. Posts: 1,202	Paul remarked that he rejoiced in anyone preaching Christ. Methinks the apple falls not far from the tree?

04-03-2004, 06:25 AM	#5
Joyfilled Banned Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: mINNESOTA Posts: 253	You need to read the gospel again, CA. Jesus said that before He came, John the baptist was the greatest man. But then He said "But I tell you the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he is." John the baptists knew that the messian was coming and recognized Him when He saw Him. He was at that time, the ONLY person on earth who could do that. That is why Jesus praised Him. John said that "I baptize with water. But there is one whose sandals I am not fit to wear who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." John made no claims of forgiving people's sins. Only baptizing them with water. Jesus said we need both water and the spirit. Water comes from man and the Spirit comes from God.

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